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PIP descriptors

MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
edited August 2016 in Disabled people
If a claimant can complete a task, say dressing, on their own but it takes them more than twice as long as an able-bodied person, then does this count as the claimant not being able to do the activity at all?

Replies

  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi Matilda,

    The PIP handbook available on the government website details the reliability criteria. You can find the PIP handbook by following this link. The information about reliability is on page 8.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519119/personal-independence-payment-handbook.pdf

    Reliability
    For a descriptor to apply to a claimant they must be able to reliably complete the activity as described in the descriptor. Reliably means whether they can do so:
    safely – in a manner unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person, either during or after completion of the activity 
    to an acceptable standard  
    repeatedly – as often as is reasonably required, and 
    in a reasonable time period – no more than twice as long as the maximum period that a non-disabled person would normally take to complete that activity. 

    The Disability Rights UK Guide to claiming PIP also looks at the reliability criteria and you can find it on page 6 http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/personal-independence-payment-pip

    It doesn't necessarily mean that the claimant will be assessed as not being able to do the activity at all, but the reliability criteria does need to be considered when assessing whether a claimant can carry out the activity and an appropriate score given. 
    These are the descriptors for the dressing and undressing activity and the example you've given above could mean that 6b would be applied but PIP is unique to each individual and how their disability affects them so it's difficult to provide a standard answer. I hope this has been helpful though.

    Dressing and Undressing

    6 a. Can dress and undress unaided. 0 points
    6 b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to dress or undress. 2 points
    6 c. Needs either - (i) prompting to be able to dress, undress or determine appropriate circumstances for remaining clothed; or (ii) prompting or assistance to be able to select appropriate clothing. 2 points
    6 d. Needs assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body. 2 points
    6 e. Needs assistance to be able to dress or undress their upper body. 4 points
    6 f. Cannot dress or undress at all. 8 points

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks, Debbie.  It's a mystery as to how DWP apply the reliability criteria.  Whether if the person can do it safely, repeatedly and to an acceptable standard but can't do it in a reasonable time they are awarded some points, or, if they are unable to meet one of the four criteria only, but can meet the other three, then they are awarded no points.

    When I claimed DLA I stated that I could complete a variety of activities - but all took me a very long time, and I was awarded DLA, so assume I was assessed as not being to do the activities at all.  I wonder whether or not the DWP will apply the same rules with PIP.
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi Matilda,

    The reliability criteria is laid down in the PIP regulations therefore it is a legal requirement and if not applied correctly can be challenged. 

    You might find it useful to look at the PIP assessment guide which provides guidance to healthcare professionals carrying out the assessments. You'll find information on how to apply the reliability criteria starting on page 82. This guide is available on the government website.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519147/pip-assessment-guide.pdf

    It's also worth keeping an eye on the case law that is building around PIP.
    The DLA case law which has been established over the years is not going to apply to PIP and as PIP is still a relatively new benefit, case law is still emerging. Disability Rights UK lists case law summaries on their website and it can be helpful to keep an eye on these to see how PIP is developing. http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/how-we-can-help/benefits-information/law-pages/case-law-summaries 

    If you feel that the reliability criteria has not been applied correctly in your assessment you can make a challenge on this basis. The criteria has to be applied within the law.

    Are you currently going through the process for PIP or are you anticipating in advance?

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks, Debbie.

    I've taken a quick look at the guide.  At first glance, it seems to me that HPs have a lot of scope to interpret the guidelines subjectively when applying descriptors, including considerable scope to decide not to award points. However, I understand that 60% of claimants who appeal are successful.  I'll read the guide again in more detail.  I am a member of Disability Rights and read their articles about PIP.

    I have to return my how my disability affects me form to DWP by 18 Sept.  It is evident that the qualifying criteria for PIP awards is much tighter than for DLA.

    Regards

    Matilda
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Have taken a closer look at reliability criteria in the guide.  These do explain more clearly the bases on which points are awarded.  This is very helpful.  Thank you.

    Regards

    Matilda
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi Matilda,

    I'm really glad you found the reliability criteria in the guide helpful. Did you find it gave you extra confidence in answering the questions on the form?

    I hope the process is a smooth one for you and if there's anything you need along the way do let me know.

    All the best
    Debbie :)
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks, Debbie

    The guide clearly states that assessors have to take into account certain criteria one of which is the length of time it takes the applicant to complete an activity.  So, yes, I am confident that if an assessor has not applied due weight to time taken, then I would have grounds for appeal.

    I'll let you know the outcome of my application.

    Thanks again.

    Regards

    Matilda
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    I have received a text from DWP stating that they have received my how your disability affects me form, that I may have to have a consultation and if so they'll be in touch again. So have to wait and see what happens next.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Appears that this is a standard text just to acknowledge receipt. Can't tell from the wording whether or not I'll have to have a face to face.

    Matilda
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @matilda,

    You're right these are standard texts designed to update the claimant on the progress of their claim without the need to ring the contact centre to find out. You may receive more messages along the way as the claim progresses. It's difficult to determine if a face to face assessment will be required. As this is your first claim for PIP, I expect you probably will need an assessment but you never can be sure.

    Keep in touch and let me know how it all goes.

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    First claim for PIP but currently on DLA and have to be reassessed.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Have got a date for my face to face assessment. Atos have authorised me to claim taxi fares.

  • JoanneMontgomeryJoanneMontgomery Member Posts: 9 Connected
    This is all so help full.  Looks like I'll have to become an expert just to fill the form in?  So scaredy. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    It's terrifying how the DWP are making disabled people jump through hoops because the Government are determined to cut disability benefits to save money.

    I am so angry that I am numb, unable to express just how distressed I am.  Especially when I hear stories of unquestionably very disabled people, not just having their benefit amount reduced, but removed altogether.  Though those people are more than likely to win their appeals.  Disability Rights now say that 68% of those who appeal a PIP decision win because tribunal members are far better qualified and more sympathetic than the initial face to face assessors.  But it's still a long and difficult process to go through.  And I suppose that benefits are stopped until the end of the appeal process which will cause hardship for many until such time as their benefits are restored and backdated.

    There is help available to fill in the form.  There is advice on Disability Rights and Citizens Advice Bureau websites, and I think on Scope's website, too.  You can also go to a CAB, or similar help organisations, to help you complete the form.  Good luck!


  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda, when is your assessment?

    Here is a link to the PIP Assessment Guidance for providers carrying out the PIP assessments. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/547146/pip-assessment-guide.pdf
    It's worth reading through before your assessment so you know what should happen. If at the assessment the assessor does not carry out the assessment in line with the guidance, you can raise this with them there and then. We've heard many stories of assessments being rushed through and claimants not being given the opportunity to fully explain how their disability affects them. I hope that anyone who has an assessment coming up finds this guidance helpful.

    I wish you all the best for your assessment Matilda and thank you for sharing with us and helping others with where to go for help. It's very much appreciated. :)
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    This is all so help full.  Looks like I'll have to become an expert just to fill the form in?  So scaredy. 
    Hi @JoanneMontgomery,

    I'm really glad to hear that you've found all of this helpful. The best way to prepare for the form filling is learning as much about PIP as you can beforehand. If you can get local help with the forms that would be great but it's not always possible. If you need help finding some local advice for those forms we're happy to help here at the helpline. Disability Rights UK's Guide to making a PIP claim is really very helpful if you can't get help with those forms. http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/personal-independence-payment-pip

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    My assessment is on 10 Oct.  Thank you very much for the link to the PIP Assessment Guidance which should be very helpful.

    Regards

    Jennie
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    I hope you find it useful and helps you to prepare for your assessment on the 10th.

    I hope it all goes well and I hope to hear back from you soon with what I hope will be a positive decision.

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you, Debbie.  I hope for a positive decision, too.  But, from what I have heard about decisions I am expecting the worst, no matter now the assessment goes.  I am preparing myself for the inevitable and for having to go through the appeals process.

    Regards

    Jennie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    I've read some of the Assessment Guidance.

    It indicates that only a minority should need face to face whereas in practice the majority have to attend face to face.

    Also, in one section the guide states that an assessor should not base their assessment only appearances on assessment day - whereas in a later section assessors are told to observe how the claimant walks, stands, sits, reaches to pick up possessions from the floor, and assess how they can carry out such activities, implying that this gives a true picture of the claimant's 'functional' abilities!

    No wonder so many claimants are successfully able to appeal their decisions.

    Regards

    Matilda
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    The assessors guide states that they should conduct a physical examination of the claimant.  Is the assessor allowed to ask the claimant to remove any of their clothes?

    Matilda
  • julierosejulierose Member Posts: 23 Connected
    they did not ask me too in fact they came to my home  the physical was very short they asked a few questions and all over pretty quick ....i cant see why  they would need to have you remove your clothes 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    I meant can they ask you to take off outer clothes such as shoes and cardigan/jacket?  

    The assessors' guide recommends a fairly thorough examination (though not intimate), for example asking claimants to lie down on a couch, whereas in practice assessors seem to conduct a shorter examination.

    Were you awarded PIP, julierose?
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    As it's a physical examination I expect that they probably could ask you to remove your coat and shoes just as you would if you were having a physical examination at your GP's surgery. I wouldn't expect that you would have to remove any more than that but each assessment should be tailored to the claimant's individual circumstances so it does depend on which parts of the body are affected. 

    You're right, in practice the physical examinations are quite short. Could this be because they're getting their information from the informal observations? 

    If you're not comfortable with anything the assessor asks you to do, don't do it.

    Best wishes
    Debbie


       
  • julierosejulierose Member Posts: 23 Connected
    i have not heard  from PIP yet as such as descision, i did however get a letter apologising about the delay ,i am sure they must be pretty busy,
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Julie

    My consultation letter says a decision should be made in 4-8 weeks.  Have to wait and see. As you say, they must be busy.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Yes, they could be getting their info from the informal observations. Or, as an assessment that thoroughly covered all ground detailed in the guide would take rather longer than the expected 60 minutes, inevitably the physical examination and other sections have to be shortened. Therefore, many potential grounds for appeal.

    Matilda

  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    You're absolutely right @matilda, lots of grounds for appeal! I think we're going to see much more case law building in the future too.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    My assessment on 10 Oct was an inquisition.  The assessor was trying to trip me up, to get me to contradict what I had said in my claim form and diary.   My answers confirmed what I had put in writing but two were less firm than they should have been as by then I was very tired after an hour of being questioned.  Atos and the DWP are likely to exploit any perceived loophole.

    Now awaiting a decision.  Have asked for a copy of the Atos report which I don't expect to be dealt with until the DWP case worker looks at my file to make a decision. Although the DWP have said that a copy of the report will be sent to me, Disability Rights have stated on their website that assessors' reports have been withheld from claimants until appeal stage.
  • JoanneMontgomeryJoanneMontgomery Member Posts: 9 Connected
    Hi Matilda,  I am on medium level of care and Highest level of mobility DLA awarded indefinitely.  I rang them before I ordered my new car,  which I've had for about eight weeks now,  to ask if they were due to bring PIP conversion into my area of Hampshire in the near future.  They said definately not for the next two to four years.  So I ordered my car. Last week they sent me a text to say I have to apply for PIP or loose my FLA?  
    I'm waiting for the form to arrive with real dread.  I have a real problem with opening my mail, I've been this way for well over fifteen years now,  I find the form filling very stressful and it took me three weeks to fill in the last one for ESA!  I hide it,  think I've done it,  tell myself I have then find it not done!  So I'm really scared.  I can't loose my car again!  It happened to me before,  the judge was so cross I'd been put through it all and awarded it back to me indefinately promising me I'd never have to go through this ever again?  
    You referred to sending them a diary?  I think that would be good for me to do.  It would explain what my life is like spending most of my time in bed,  because to be up I have to take large doses of morphine and muscle relaxants.  They make me tiered and it's a bit of a vicious circle!  Would I have to get permission from anyone to send in a diary with the form? Thank you for all the information and directions.  This is a wonderful site. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Joanne

    I'm really sorry to hear that the DWP gave you conflicting info - case of the left hand of a faceless bureaucracy not knowing what the right is doing.  So, no surprise there.

    It took me a long time to fill in my PIP form.  I phoned DWP to ask for extra time because it was a long, complex form and I would need to seek help to complete it.  They gave me two extra weeks, so in practice I had about five weeks to fill in the form.  If you need extra time, phone DWP.  And don't let them fob you off - insist that you need more time  because you have to get help.

    The Disability Rights website gives a draft diary which you can adapt to suit your circumstances.  Even the DWP PIP notes recommend sending a diary so, of course, no need to ask permission.  I sent in a week's diary.

    Have a look at

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519119/personal-independence-payment-handbook.pdf

    referred to above by Debbie, with a link.  This gives details of what health professionals should look for on the application form and diary.  And take a look at Disability Rights and CAB guides to PIP on their respective websites, especially the former.

    Disability Rights say you should list in the diary all the aids you use, and they also say that you get points if you are unable to complete a task.
      
    Then, when you get an assessment date, look at what Disability Rights and CAB have to say about this and at the PIP assessment guide for professionals referred to above by Debbie, with a link.   This is very illuminating - it advises assessors how to go about tripping claimants up, to get them to contradict, if only by omission, turn of phrase, or lack of clarity, what they said in their form and diary!  So, you'll know some of the traps to look out for.

    I hope you don't lose your car again, Joanna.  It's shocking what the DWP are putting us through.  We are being re-assessed, not by the original criteria on which we were awarded DLA indefinitely, but on much narrower criteria, all to save money.  One day we are disabled, the next we are not.  Miraculous!

    When I went for my assessment, Atos had even dragged in two people in wheelchairs.  One man in a wheelchair was cursing DWP/Atos out loud something awful - I can't repeat what he said!  But he spoke for all of us, I think.

    Matilda
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    It sounds like you had quite an ordeal on the day. Well done for getting through it. It seems that all the worries and concerns you had came true. We won't know until they make a decision and inform you of it but it's good that you've made a note of how the assessment went in case you need that as evidence for an appeal. Hopefully it won't come to that but it's good to plan for the worst and starting thinking ahead to challenging a negative decision (if one is made), particularly when things are fresh in your memory.

    I hope that you don't have to wait too long for a decision. From what I hear of the front line it's usually around 4-8 weeks after assessment that a decision is received. This does vary across the country though.

    The advice you've given above to @JoanneMontgomery is fabulous. I hope you've found it helpful Joanne. It's incredibly frustrating that you rang up and made a general enquiry about whether PIP is in your area and this then led to an invitation to claim PIP. It should be the case that DLA claimants are invited to claim PIP if they are reporting a change in circumstances, not making a general enquiry. I have heard of this happening and the claimant concerned did not qualify for PIP. Claimant subsequently appealed the validity of the invitation in the absence of a change of circumstances but although the general enquiry didn't count as criteria for PIP migration, there is a general power for the Secretary of State to invite anyone to claim PIP. The claimant lost the appeal regarding the validity of the invitation at Upper Tribunal on this basis.

    I'm really sorry that this has happened. Follow the advice above and be as detailed as you can in the 'How your disability affects you form'. Send as much evidence as you can. Remember the 'reliability criteria' and if you think you might have problems attending a face to face assessment make sure you state this in the form and if you can provide evidence at this stage, that would help support your needs.

    If you need anything else please do let us know, Matilda is becoming quite the PIP expert here and is doing a wonderful job.

    Very best wishes
    Debbie :)
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Thank you very much for your advice and for the compliments.  I hope that I've been of help to Joanna.

    Best wishes

    Matilda
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Have received the assessor's report on which she is described as a 'paramedic', so not a medical expert.

    It appears that assessors do indeed place a lot of weight on informal observations!  Her observations were accurate, except in one important respect. She claimed that I took my handbag off over my head and then picked it up from the floor and put it back on over my head after the interview.  At no time did I take my handbag off, not even during the physical examination which took place sitting on a chair.   I was also carrying a carrier bag which I put on the chair next to me, not on the floor.

    There are other inaccuracies in the report.

    The report states:

     that I can take a bath unaided using aids - but she does not add that bathing takes me a very long time as I have stated in my form.

    that I take a mild to moderate painkiller, Naproxen.  Naproxen is prescription-only and I have always believed that this is a strong painkiller - but I will check this.

    that I have quite a lot of motor movement.  However, and I know many people tend to say this, this really was an exceptionally good day for me  I didn't even have to take any painkillers and i cannot recall the previous day on which I did not need to take any painkillers.

    This part of the report concludes that the functional restrictions affecting daily living activities have been present for three months and are likely to last at least nine months.

    The assessor has decided that I can walk more than 20 metres but not more than 50 metres, using an aid, based on my being able to walk the 16 metres from the waiting room to the assessment room!   And of course this route was indoors on carpet, not outside on uneven pavement and using curbs.  Furthermore, as I've already stated, this was an exceptionally good day.

    Assessor has also ticked three and nine months for mobility activities.

    Report states that my claim should be reviewed in five years.

    My feeling is that I am going to get a negative decision but also that I have good grounds for an appeal.

    How can assessors claim to be able to make an accurate physical assessment based on one hour's observation on one day?  Of course, that day might be untypical, might be exceptionally good or, for that matter, exceptionally bad.

    Best wishes

    Matilda










  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    Thanks for posting this, it's really interesting to learn how the assessment was conducted and that you've already picked out some inaccuracies from it including how you didn't actually take your bag off during the examination. It's interesting that you've also confirmed how much the informal observations play into the assessment process. 

    I have to admit I did a quick google on Naproxen because I too was under the impression that this is a strong painkiller. I managed to establish that it acts as a slower releasing painkiller and it's in the same class as ibuprofen but that's about it. Might be worth a chat with your GP or pharmacist? 

    The decision maker will look at the report along with your 'how your disability affects you' form and all of the medical evidence you provided. So although you feel you might get a negative decision you could well be surprised. I can't see a no PIP at all award from what you've said and you've been given a recommend review period of 5 years so this is positive.

    From the report have you been able to work out how many points overall you may have scored? It sounds as though you will at least qualify for the standard rate of mobility based on the assessment that you can walk more than 20m but less than 50m and this scores 8 points. Do you agree with this descriptor? Was any mention made of the reliability criteria? Did you score anything under the planning and following journeys?

    I think there are good grounds for an appeal if you get a negative decision. If you want to talk it over once you get the decision, let me know and we can book a telephone appointment to work out what your options are.

    In the meantime I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Thank you for your reply.  I'm encouraged by what you have said that you can't see a no PIP at all award and that a recommended review in five years is positive.

    My understanding is that standard mobility component is awarded only to those who cannot plan routes, etc.  I have not claimed any difficulty there.  My claim is based on my not being able to walk more than 20 metres outdoors before I need to stop and rest.   I fail to see how the assessor can decide that I can walk more than 20 metres outdoors simply because I can walk 16 metres indoors.

    Thank you for your encouragement and advice and, if I receive a negative decision, I would like to talk it over and will let you know and book a telephone appointment to discuss options.

    When I feel a bit stronger, I'll see if I can work the possible points score from the report.  I'll ask about Naproxen.  It must be a strong painkiller as I have to take Lanzaprazole as well to protect my stomach against getting ulcers which Naproxen can cause.  Naproxen can also cause heart attacks and other serious side effects.  My understanding is that only strong medication can cause serious side effects (unless mild/moderate are taken in excess).

    The assessor said nothing about reliability.  She has stated that I can bathe myself but has not added that it takes me a very long time; therefore, she has not applied the reliability criterion here.

    Best wishes

    Matilda
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    I have been awarded PIP both components at standard rate whereas I was receiving DLA care highest rate and mobility higher rate.  I am surprised that I have been awarded PIP standard rate mobility because I put nothing in that section on my 'How your disability affects you' form and thought that this rate was only for those who cannot find their way around without help.

    I am minded strongly to appeal as I think I have good grounds but I am so tired today that I cannot read about the next stage, mandatory reconsideration, today.  I hope that after a good night's sleep tonight I'll feel able to deal with the mandatory reconsideration process tomorrow.

    It is important that I appeal as reduction from higher rate to standard rate disability benefit will mean, not only reduction in disability benefit itself, but also loss of other benefits that apply only to higher rate, not to standard rate.

    Regards

    Matilda



  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Just some of my grounds for appeal will be these:

    Atos lied on report form, lies repeated by DWP on decision form; no account has been taken of reliability criteria, specifically the very long time it takes for me to complete tasks; decision form says I can chop and peel vegetables on good days - but I have said on my form, and also told the Atos assessor, that there are far more bad days than good ones when I cannot chop and peel vegetables.
  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    I hope you're feeling better today and feel more able to press ahead with the mandatory reconsideration.

    You've done a great job so far in researching and picking apart your assessment report. 

    In the 'How to win a PIP appeal' guide there is a Mandatory Reconsideration letter tool which will generate a letter for you. http://www.advicenow.org.uk/pip-tool hopefully this link will take you straight to that tool.

    I hope it helps take some of the pressure off.

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Thank you, I am feeling much better today and thank you for the link to the PIP tool. This is very helpful.

    Regards

    Matilda


  • Debbie_ScopeDebbie_Scope Member Posts: 947 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    Really glad to hear you're feeling better today. I'm really pleased that you found the PIP tool helpful. We tried it here at the helpline and thought it was pretty good. It's always a struggle to know what to say in these letters and this tool helps you work it all out.

    Keep up the good work and give me a shout if you need help with anything.

    Have a good day
    Debbie
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks, Debbie.

    Three of the things I have pointed out in my request for mandatory reconsideration are:

    1. The Atos Assessor claimed in her report that I took my handbag off over my head and put it on the floor from where I picked it up after the interview.  A blatant lie!  I kept my handbag slung across my body throughout, even during the physical exam.

    2.  The Atos Assessor also stated that, because I was able to walk the 16 metres from reception to assessment room (on an even carpeted surface), then it followed that I could walk more than 20 metres but less than 50 metres outside using uneven pavement and kerbs.  Though a preposterous inference, the DWP have accepted this as gospel.  The PIP Handbook states that assessment of walking should take place outside using pavements and kerbs.

    3.  The Atos Assessor has claimed that, because I can turn a power steering wheel, then it follows that I can, using aids, prepare and cook food, cut it up and eat it, wash and bathe and dress all within a reasonable time.  I have pointed out that it requires far less manual dexterity and use of arms to turn a power steering wheel than to peel and chop vegetables, cut up meat, bathe, wash hair and put clothes on and take them off.  Therefore, it takes me a very long time to complete these tasks.  And on bad days I cannot chop and peel vegetables at all.  Again, the DWP have accepted the Assessor's claims as gospel.

    My experience has shown that my Atos Assessor was willing to tell a blatant lie and to make laughably illogical inferences - and the DWP were perfectly happy to accept those illogical inferences.   The blatant lie indicates corrupt practice by the Atos Assessor,  and the illogical inferences indicate, at the very least, incompetence on the part of the Atos Assessor and the DWP.  Though I have worded my letter more diplomatically!

    Regards

    Matilda
  • scouserscouser Member Posts: 14 Listener
    I just recived my pip letter but before I tell you how it went I was on high rate walking and mid care on dla for life.i had my face to face 3 weeks ago and I didn't answer anything with out showing him i.e. asked about my walking and I got out me chair with different and showed him that I couldn't walk more then 10 m and then sat down with out my wife's help it was hard work but need to be done as I think they don't believe you unless you show them and then he asked if I could life me arms etc and did that in the end I showed him what my health really was like I didn't just sit there and say things I showed them and I think that's my they past me for enhanced on both untill 2027 so stress free for 10 years mine may be a happy ending for me but for lose more it's heart ache good luck to you all 
  • AlexAlex Scope Team Posts: 1,325 Scope community team
    Well done @scouser. Really pleased you got what you needed.

    Thanks for sharing some great tips for other people going through the process too!
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Well done @scouser - it's always cheering to hear about happy PIP outcomes.
  • scouserscouser Member Posts: 14 Listener
    Thank you all and I would like to say this the way pip does face to face is not that different from the dla in away they ask you a lot  of different things but I do think with pip it's not the health prom you have it's how it stopes you doing things i.e. Cooking walking you have to try to work out what you are going to say for every asker not easy when you are streed and I do think it's easier to try and show them you cat walk and ur are unstay on ur feet they will believe u more seeing it then you just saying it I was tested in my hands and arms and it stated I had little mobility from arms and legs and I was shaking with the strees off it all it was a over welling felling for me  and he could see that and took is time and a hour half after I think he was more relieved it was over cos it took along to to write everything done but he did say off recorded can't see why it won't go strate over to pip may be I found a nice one if you no what I mean 
  • ChrisKzChrisKz Member Posts: 33 Connected
    Just had a home assessment 4th feb ..... I have osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis .. degenerative bone disease in the spine ...... Just had a decision .. Atos have found a miracle cure .... I am not disabled so I don't need the PIP award ....  
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @ChrisKz - I suggest that you repost in the 'Ask a benefits advisor' category as a benefits expert could advise you on what to do next.
  • ChrisKzChrisKz Member Posts: 33 Connected
    Its O.K .. This will be my 3rd appeal  .. won all so far . Disabilities can't lie , only the examiner

  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Well done, @ChrisKz.  This encourages me - I was awarded standard rate daily living and mobility and have appealed arguing for enhanced rate both elements.
  • ChrisKzChrisKz Member Posts: 33 Connected
    I was on enhanced .. Atos cured that with only 4 points .. Just asked for transcript as I downloaded the questions and what the examiner asked were not the same , nor did what she asked , have any bearing on my disability . Still taxpayers money well spent again on more appeals 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    The PIP assessment system is barking mad. The assessors must be selected for their proficiency in telling lies.
  • ChrisKzChrisKz Member Posts: 33 Connected
    They must get highly paid . should have seen the car my assessor is driving around in ...... Now we know where the money saved is going
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    The DWP appear to want to give money to assessors and appeals staff rather than to disabled people!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Matilda said:
    Thank you, Debbie.  I hope for a positive decision, too.  But, from what I have heard about decisions I am expecting the worst, no matter now the assessment goes.  I am preparing myself for the inevitable and for having to go through the appeals process.

    Regards

    Jennie

  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    ChrisKz said:
    They must get highly paid . should have seen the car my assessor is driving around in ...... Now we know where the money saved is going
    That is amusing and reminds me of my 3rd and final assessment before I told the DWP where to put their PIP files!

    As I have been on a merry go round of Enhanced mobility then nothing then back to Enhanced Mobility during the past 5 years, my Motability cars are handed back at regular intervals.
    However on the day of the assessment, a colleague and friend (who just happens to be the Mayor) drove my wife and myself to the venue. He has a large new black Jaguar and parked it right outside the entrance doors. He came round and opened the rear car doors for us helping me out as it was a little low on the ground.

    He then came in with us and asked if they wouldn't mind if he parked opposite the entrance doors whilst waiting for us to come out after the assessment.
    The face of the receptionist and the security guy was a picture who must have thought that we were some sort of royalty!


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