PIP, DLA and AA
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Indefinite PIP awards

MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
I won my PIP tribunal appeal the other day and have been awarded enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility for an indefinite period.

Does this mean that the DWP are unlikely to ever want to re-assess me again?

Replies

  • NystagmiteNystagmite Member Posts: 609 Pioneering
    There's no such thing as indefinite anymore. It's either a fixed award or ongoing. Ongoing means they'll contact you after 10 years.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    My Tribunal letter states:

    "It is inappropriate to fix a term".
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,316 Pioneering
    @Matilda I'm sure the Scope advisors tell people when they're questioning why they're being assessed when it's not due that the DWP can review a claim anytime. Hopefully they'll clarify that on this thread. A timescale should be kept to in my opinion...
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    The Tribunal judge said he wasn't fixing a term because by rheumatoid arthritis is never going to improve.  But the medical geniuses at the DWP might think they know better.  However, in 10 years time (the time after which ongoing awards usually are reviewed) PIP might have been overhauled into something approaching sanity.  We can but hope...
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda

    That's really great news that you have been awarded enhanced rates of daily living and mobility at a tribunal and for an indefinite period as well.

    Awards are generally given for a fixed period, but can be awarded for an ongoing period. As always, the DWP can review decisions when they feel it is appropriate. The maximum time between 'reviews' is 10 years. So the longest time they will leave you alone is 10 years.

    Lets keep fingers crossed that you keep your award for some time!

    I don't know if you have other benefit income, but it might be worth doing a 'benefit check' on http://turn2us.org.uk/ to see if there is anything else you may be entitled to now that you are receiving the enhanced rate of the daily living component.

    Laura

    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,316 Pioneering
    edited June 2017
    @Matilda   That sounds like the DWP can review the claim anytime saying they've decided it's appropriate to do so. That 10 years is only the maximum length of time you have it for. I'd be interested to have this clarified and I'm sure @Matilda you would also. The other question that comes to mind is are they more likely to review it sooner rather than later if a Tribunal has changed the award and set the time limit rather than themselves?   
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    Matilda said:
    I won my PIP tribunal appeal the other day and have been awarded enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility for an indefinite period.

    Does this mean that the DWP are unlikely to ever want to re-assess me again?

    Congratulations @Matilda ,

    This is the wording I got too. The thing is, there is a difference between an assessment and a review of your award.

    The DWP could assess you at any time as it is written into the law. However, if they went on to use this to change your actual award then they have automatically put a finite limit on your award. That would be contempt of court.

    So it would be pointless for you to be assessed again but it can't be ruled out. If you were then just keep repeating to the assessor "I refer you to court judgement xxx/xxx/xxx. There have been no changes in my circumstances since then."

    The court judgement on your award is not time limited. The DWP have no legal right to change it. They would have to apply to the court to do so.

    Sadly we can't rule out the complete cancelling of PIP and something else replacing it. Let's not go looking for trouble though shall we? :smile:
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you, @Markmywords.  That's very helpful.

    We'll just have to wait and see if DWP start to re-assess people in receipt of ongoing awards.   They'd be looking for trouble and wasting money if they were to. 

    Yes, better not to speculate on PIP being replaced with an even worse system (if that's possible)! :o
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @wildlife

    There is no time limit on my award.  10 years is the maximum time before the DWP would review it (e.g. they might just look at it and take no action).  As @Markmywords says, if DWP wanted to change the actual award, then in practice that would be setting a time limit which they would have to apply to the court to do so.

    It would be interesting to know in practice what so far has happened with the DWP reviewing ongoing awards.
  • wildlifewildlife Member Posts: 1,316 Pioneering
    @Matilda Maybe someone will comment on here who has had this experience. It must be so reassuring for you to have won the appeal so convincingly but do you still feel you were unjustly treated before the Tribunal or are you able to put it all behind you and move on?
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @wildlife

    Like many PIP claimants, I feel that I was unjustly treated before the Tribunal.  This is little comfort, but I don't think that Atos and DWP were against me personally.  

    As we know, the sole purpose of PIP is to reduce the disability benefits bill, even if assessors have to resort to lying as they frequently do.  This is the only way they can justify awarding fewer points than really are merited.

    I'm really not going to worry any more - unless and until the DWP decide at some point to re-assess me which is unlikely, I understand, but not impossible :) .
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    Hi Matilda and others,

    Just to say that I completely agree with my colleague Laura's advice. There is unfortunately nothing to stop the DWP from reviewing a fixed term award earlier: they have the power to do so, whether the decision has been made following a tribunal or in any other circumstances. I don't think having had a tribunal hearing makes it more or less likely - unfortunately, it can never be ruled out. 

    Markmywords is quite right to say that if that happens, the thing to emphasize is that there has been no change of circumstances.

    Meanwhile, we can put as much pressure as possible on government to stop the stress and public cost of reassessments for people with lifelong conditions. This is something they stated they would do for ESA (people in the support group, anyway), but there is no evidence as yet of it happening. It's surely logical to do the same for PIP.

    Matilda, congratulations on your result. We are all really pleased for you. I'm sorry we can't provide any reassurance on this matter but as you say, there really is no point worrying about it for the time being. I'd echo Laura's advice to check whether the award gives you entitlement to anything else, as it often can do.

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2017
    Will @BenefitsTrainingCo


    What is the position with DWP reviewing an award that does not have a fixed term?

    My appeal decision notice states that: "It is inappropriate to to fix a term" for both daily living and mobility.


  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    Hi Matilda,

    I'm afraid it makes no difference at all. The law says this:

    'the Secretary of State may, for any reason and at any time, determine afresh'

    And that, in practice, is what happens. We await a sensible administration of benefits which doesn't constantly reassess people with ongoing, lifelong and/or progressive conditions.

    But Matilda, I don't want to worry you. You have just got a very good result. I have to be honest about law and practice but unless it happens to you, there isn't much action you can take (apart I suppose from asking your Parliamentary candidates where they stand on the issue!)

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you, [email protected]

    @Markmywords above has said that it would be pointless to re-assess anyone with an ongoing award.  Because, if the DWP changed the award, then that de facto would be placing a time limit on an ongoing award - which would be contempt of court.  Is this so?
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Member Posts: 419 Pioneering
    I think too much emphasis is being put on a potential time period.

    Point one: The court has definitively decided that you qualify for x and y under the criteria. There is no time limitation on this decision. There is no route of appeal to this decision.

    Point two: The courts are the ultimate arbiter of interpreting the law. The Home Sec. or his servants cannot overrule a court under any circumstances. This is constitutional.

    An impression is being given that the DWP might "lay low" for a while and then completely disregard the court's award decision. This is utterly false.

    Any changes would have to be approved by the court. As I said there is no route of appeal to a higher court. They capped it so and it works both ways. There can be no further action or case law as a Tribunal cannot do so.

    The only way to circumvent the situation would be, as I alluded, to repeal PIP and create something more open to manipulation.

    I am not a lawyer although I have won every one of the six cases I have had (don't ask.)
    No-one else here is a lawyer either and that should be kept in mind !
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you, @Markmywords.  That's very reassuring.  And the judge said to me that he was making an indefinite award as my medical condition was never going to improve.  Though I understand that 10 years is the maximum time before DWP would review it - but, as you say, review isn't the same as reassessment.
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    Hello Matilda

    You are correct that a re-assessment is not the same as  a review. Currently when a claim is being reviewed a short form will be sent to you, just asking (as detailed above) if your condition has changed. Given that you are on the enhanced rates, and your condition is unlikely to improve then their will be no change in regard to your needs for PIP purposes.

    We would all hope that a decision such as the one you received from a Tribunal would result in you being put at the very bottom of the pile when it comes to claims being reviewed. If it didn't and you were being reviewed after a couple of years, I would be encouraging you to see your MP, so that that they are aware of not only the stress it causes individuals but the way public money is being spent on reviewing such cases.

    Regards

    Maria


    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you very much, Maria!
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    My DWP award letter states that they will contact me after 9 Oct 2026 which will be 10 years from the date of my assessment.
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    @Matilda just been reading all your threads regarding this matter of On-Going PIP awards, I see you got it through a "tribunal" I don't know if it would make any difference but I got my On-Going award Enhanced both parts, and was awarded direct from the DWP CM, also it was all done by Paper based by Capita assessment and clearly states No review necessary on PA3 form and all FE backs everything up and all noted on that form. 



    So if I got a AR1 review before and not through CC I will just quote all within the PA3 and say what the hell?

    Mine is from 24thOctober 2017 to 24th October 2027 and states clearly after that date.



    I was told by the DWP it will defo be after 10 years for review. I was also on DLA indef before PIP.


    @mikehughescq I had read what you had stated surrounding this and perhaps the tribunal way is to On-Going is different, perhaps you or anyone else can also clarify this as it as anyone else have heard different now since yours or these last comments regarding this. 

    In relation to “ongoing awards”, the guidance states:
    370. Ongoing awards are appropriate where the claimant’s restrictions on daily living and or mobility are unlikely to change significantly. If the HP considers no significant change is likely and no requirement for future review it indicates an ongoing award may be appropriate.

    The length of a Personal Independence Payment (PIP) award is based on an individual’s circumstances and can vary from 9 months to an on-going award with a light touch review at the ten year point.

    PIP already recognises that for the most severely disabled claimants, the award review process could seem unnecessarily intrusive. Existing PIP claimants with the most severe, lifetime disabilities, whose functional ability has remained the same, are more likely to have their evidence reviewed by a DWP Decision Maker and will not need to have another face-to-face assessment with a healthcare professional.

    Some of the above info taken from here http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7820/CBP-7820.pdf

    Be interesting everyone's take on this matter.
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    Contrary to the many assertions on this thread and, in line with what Benefits Training Company have said, an ongoing award is made by a tribunal and can be reviewed at any time. The circumstances for that are:

    1) DWP select about 3 to 5,000 cases every year for random review did quality checking.

    2) Someone contacts DWP and claims you are acting fraudulently in some way. They are bound to investigate.

    3) You report a change of circumstances and DWP review your entitlement.

    4) Periodic planned reviews.

    The latter go in cycles depending on how busy things are but at present ongoing awards are being reviewed every 3 years or so. It is highly unlikely at present that anyone will go 10 years without review. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger

    I think too much emphasis is being put on a potential time period.

    Point one: The court has definitively decided that you qualify for x and y under the criteria. There is no time limitation on this decision. There is no route of appeal to this decision.

    Point two: The courts are the ultimate arbiter of interpreting the law. The Home Sec. or his servants cannot overrule a court under any circumstances. This is constitutional.

    An impression is being given that the DWP might "lay low" for a while and then completely disregard the court's award decision. This is utterly false.

    Any changes would have to be approved by the court. As I said there is no route of appeal to a higher court. They capped it so and it works both ways. There can be no further action or case law as a Tribunal cannot do so.

    The only way to circumvent the situation would be, as I alluded, to repeal PIP and create something more open to manipulation.

    I am not a lawyer although I have won every one of the six cases I have had (don't ask.)
    No-one else here is a lawyer either and that should be kept in mind !
    And regrettably I must also post that every single assertion of this post by @Markmywords is inaccurate and should be disregarded. 
  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
    @Governments_A_Joke Hi shouldn' they pay you 564.40 was wondering why it states 544.24 mine also says same .
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    edited March 2018
    dee4848 said:
    @Governments_A_Joke Hi shouldn' they pay you 564.40 was wondering why it states 544.24 mine also says same .

    @dee4848 Don't worry that figure of £544.24 was because of transition from DLA. It's now £564.40.

    I also thought it strange but they done me out of £20....

    So @mikehughescq Iam sorry I don't speak your language and those words of which you speak? 

    Please could you give it in plain English. 

    What is right?  Do Tribunal get reviews anytime or does mine from the DWP as I mentioned above. Thanks for any comments regarding this as I'm a little thick.

    Edited to add if it's what you've stated above? What's the point of them giving me an On-Going award if they're reviewing when they already have substantial information. Bloody crazy. 

    Light touch at 10 Year seems pointless then.

    Thanks.
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • dee4848dee4848 Member Posts: 218 Pioneering
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke

    My award letter from the DWP, following Tribunal decision, states that DWP will contact me after Nov 2027.

    So, let's hope that DWP will do what they say in their letters and will not contact people before the date they state they will.
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    Matilda said:
    @Governments_A_Joke

    My award letter from the DWP, following Tribunal decision, states that DWP will contact me after Nov 2027.

    So, let's hope that DWP will do what they say in their letters and will not contact people before the date they state they will.

    @Matilda It will be interesting as you had it given by a (Tribunal decision) and mine was direct by the DWP?

    I will complain if it's every 3 years, as I believe what's the point of On-Going award?
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke

    I believe that the first PIP awards were made in 2014; I've not heard on Scope of any people told in 2014 that they would be contacted in 2024 instead being contacted by DWP in 2017.
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    @Matilda looks like will got Know choice and will have to see, but seems pointless and adding more stress to us by keep reviewing, I understand what @mikehughescq has stated within regards to fraud, CC, but keep reviewing is all to much I would rather they sit outside my house as I don't go or do anything this is the last thing we, I need is all this aggro I thought we would have some peace, I just hate relying on these people to survive it's so degrading is an understatement. 

    If I had my way I would rather suck eggs than having to claim benefits of any kind.

     I had my own money and thought I was sorted without having to claim until some thieving **** robbed all my money from my bank and then had no choice but to ask for help it's not in my nature to ask for help, and I feel disgusted by it all.

    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke

    @BenefitsTrainingCo have said that, while DWP may review awards at any time, they have not said that it is inevitable that 'no end date' awards will be reviewed every three years.  

    I have a great deal of confidence in @BenefitsTrainingCo's advice.

    While we should not be complacent, neither should we be living in fear of the dreaded brown envelope arriving after only three years.  At least, not until such time as it becomes apparent that this will be the case.

    Certainly, there have been no people reporting on Scope so far that their 'no end date' awards have been reviewed after only three years.  And I think we would have heard if any had been.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke. What the tribunal did was revise the DWP decision. Once you’re outside the usual one month deadline it’s hard to challenge a tribunal decision. However, the reason you’re being paid is because of the subsequent DWP decision and that can be challenged as I have described. 

    @Matilda there are cases reported on here which I found easily enough and more on Benefits and Work and Rightsnet. The current picture varies nationally and will no doubt change again. At present the majority are getting no further than 3 years but it’s ever changing and many are being left well alone especially as conversion cases and appeals are well behind. 

    I continue to note you like your constant little digs at me - this time by stating your confidence in @BenefitsTrainingCo. Do keep going. It’s not in the spoirit of this place and eventually I will be able to report a post and end it. 

    You also had full confidence in @Markmywords... 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq

    You are speculating about 'little digs', reading too much into what people write.  As for reporting me, I'd say that your rudeness to me far exceeds any criticism I might have made of you.

    I would point out that members of Scope forums are entitled to disagree with the views of other members.  You do not seem to like other members disagreeing with you.




  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    Any criticism you “might” have made. ROFL. I’d say until the last post you’d been absolutely overt and it’s a mystery how many times I post and you’re the next poster.

    I’m more than happy for people to disagree with me at any point if they have a factual basis for doing so. Personal experience is hugely valuable but your advice to people based on your successful claim experience is often misleading and incorrect. Feel free to disagree with me. 
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    @Governments_A_Joke. What the tribunal did was revise the DWP decision. Once you’re outside the usual one month deadline it’s hard to challenge a tribunal decision. However, the reason you’re being paid is because of the subsequent DWP decision and that can be challenged as I have described. 


    So @mikehughescq I can see what you mean regarding the Tribunal's. But the way this sounds now it does look pretty grim even having an ongoing award it's seems it not worth nothing?

    So if and once it does get reviewed and now might as well take it as it's every 3 years instead. Well until then we will have to see but I will then tell them to sove it as i won't keep punishing myself by keep going through this crap process.

    Believe me I will say it as it is I'm done with all this treatment and of being pushed around because I can't defend myself. Fk em.

    Thanks for the reply.

    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    Bear in mind that regular reviews was one of the original policy intents of PIP. Doesn’t mean they won’t back off from it though.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    edited March 2018
    @mikehughescq

    If I happen to have commented on someone else's post on a topic that you had also been commenting on, you should not assume that I was in fact commenting on your post.  I was commenting on the other person's post, not on yours.

    In future if I comment on someone else's post that happens to be about a topic several people, including yourself, have been commenting on then you should not assume that I am commenting on your post: rather, I am commenting on the person concerned's post, not on yours.  I shall include their name(s) when I post in future to avoid confusion.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    Bear in mind that regular reviews was one of the original policy intents of PIP. Doesn’t mean they won’t back off from it though.

    @mikehughescq I do understand and defiantly get where this is going regarding reviews for lessor awards say of under 10 years and fixed term awards ,I can understand that happing and or for Fraud CC etc.

    But they clearly state for on our award letters ongoing awards after 10 year? with light touch, just all seems gobbledygook to me.

    Backing off will see. As I said I will not keep jumping through many more hoops it's all becoming to much I'd rather be locked up or shot than much more of this torture.


    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke

    Below is what Will from @BenefitsTrainingCo wrote on another thread on this topic.  So Will thinks that people contacted for review before the 10 years are up would have cause for complaint.

    About the DWP letters, it is worth a complaint about this I feel, given the stress and anxiety caused by people being contacted about a review they would not expect at all based on the official information. You need to wait until you are reassessed to have grounds for complaint I suppose, but I'm sure you will keep that letter! 

    Will
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    @Matilda Thanks for that and I will (keep that letter) as Will stated.
    I certainly will be kicking off when and if the time comes and it will be well documented also.

    Time will tell?
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    @BenefitsTrainingCo and I have slightly different takes on this.

    1) The stronger argument is that PIP should match or better the ESA approach re: chronic conditions and that campaign needs to take root now. If you wait until you have a review letter to complain about it will in practice be too late. Any complaint would have to run alongside any challenge to the review. People rarely have the energy to produced focused complaints let alone a focused complaint and a normal challenge like an MR. By “focused” I mean something more effective than “... but you told me” or “you’re liars”.

    2) Estoppel - the principle which precludes a person from asserting something contrary to what is implied by a previous action or statement of that person or by a previous pertinent judicial determination. Estoppel will not apply else no reviews could occur before the end of a claim. Lots of people try estoppel with social security and it fails repeatedly. It’s the “... but they told me” argument. You can’t stop such reviews based on what you were told previously. 

    3) I doubt the stress argument is a runner. The counter would be that many people are used to regular reviews of ESA, blue badges, travel passes, medication and so on. A review that pops up once or twice in 10 years isn’t really on the same scale as ESA being reviewed every 1 or 2 years for example. There’s undoubtedly potential for a cumulative effect but that would need robust medical evidence and I mean court of law robust not tribunal or claim pack robust.

    4) The strongest argument people will have is simply that, given no actual change of circumstances, there would be no grounds for supersession. A new medical opinion can be valid grounds to supersede but that’s an argument begging to be pulled apart and we already do it a lot. If you can win the no grounds to supersede argument early on then any attempt to change an award or dead in the water. In reality most would go to appeal but it’s still the most effective way to fight the battle.

    Coincidentally today I’ve come across 2 cases of ongoing PIP awards being reviewed. 1 had been in place from 2014 and one from 2016




  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    Well well my friend @mikehughescq you certainly have thrown me some interesting information and it's way way over my head I knew you knew so much knowledge surrounding this but I'm completely at a lose with all this jargan. 

    Jesus I think I'm gonna take my chances and if they review so be it?

    I wish I had you on my side regarding all this legal stuff. My conditions are well medically documented on paper and that's why I had a Paper based award. They have the lot so I'm just gonna take what I can for now and forget worrying of or when.

    You say you've found some ongoing review cases today are you allowed to link to them or is this work that can't be shared either here or in a PM.

    Thanks Mike for this bible of information. Far over my capacity I just would they haven't put on the decision letter (after 2027) 



    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    Afraid I can’t possibly link to work cases as they are confidential.
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    Afraid I can’t possibly link to work cases as they are confidential.
    @mikehughescq thought so.... Mike are you a lawyer or welfare rights person  if so I want to hire you in future.

    Also just a quick one Capita added in my PA3 it's unecessary to review the claim.
    So that means nought either I guess. And why state after 2027.

    Did those cases have been either a tribunal or DWP only decisions
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    I’m a manager within a welfare rights service and not available for face to face advice unless you’re in my geographical area. 

    The ESA form is different in that it should stop regular reviews as they’ve been doing until late last year but it won’t stop the other reasons for a review.

    The cases I’ve come across today we’re early stages i.e. both just been told they’re up for review.
  • SethLaaSethLaa Member Posts: 115 Courageous
    OMG I am so looking forward to receiving my PIP forms (not). I don't know when I am gonna get them but after reading all the posts regarding 'PIP'. I am prepared as my headache and nerves cannot get any worse, good luck everybody.
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    I’m a manager within a welfare rights service and not available for face to face advice unless you’re in my geographical area. 

    The ESA form is different in that it should stop regular reviews as they’ve been doing until late last year but it won’t stop the other reasons for a review.

    The cases I’ve come across today we’re early stages i.e. both just been told they’re up for review.

    I thought you was within the realms of someone that knows what your talking about regarding benefits @mikehughescq as for being in your area I'm guessing your Manchester or Salford way.

    As for my ESA SG that's been 4 years in April since my last Paper Based assessment 2014 so guessing will be due soon. Oh what fun this all is.

    The cases for review are they an AR1 form or you may not know yet as I did read somewhere they can do an internal review am I right in thinking this.
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    That doesn’t especially sound like a guess to me!
  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    That doesn’t especially sound like a guess to me!

    @mikehughescq it's my training instinct in what I used to do for a living.. like your good at the Benefits thing. Anyhow thanks Mike for all your advice surrounding this situation I've sorted it all now and my minds at peace.
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke

    This has just been posted on another thread:

    "...it was the judge who looked at the papers and decided there was a error of law because if the DWP change a award before the term expires they must state what the change of circumstances are which led to it and they cannot just say the change was the result of a award review."
    Read more at https://community.scope.org.uk/discussion/41814/long-journey-to-get-pip-award#4RTccDgcYuUCAotf.99


  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    Also to add @Matilda

    Anyone on here saying they have heard of people with 10 year or ongoing awards getting reviews already. There have been none reviewed thus far. See evidence below.


    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member - under moderation Posts: 4,934 Disability Gamechanger
    @Governments_A_Joke @Matilda I would suggest politely that you take that with a very large pinch of salt. This is Sarah Newton.

    She has repeatedly refused to apologise over allegations that she had misled parliament over a court decision on the ILF and separate issues regarding Motability reserves and the Improving Lives scheme. She has been criticised by Disability Rights UK for pulling out of a meeting where she would have faced some very awkward questions because she had “anxieties about the agenda”. She also spectacularly “failed to attend or organise any events – or even post a message of support on social media – on the UN’s International Day of Persons with Disabilities (IDPD) back in December 2017. She has also been criticised for her voting record on disabled people’s issues. You can read a tiny bit of that at https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24948/sarah_newton/truro_and_falmouth/votes?policy=welfare. She’s also the minister who said it was “shameful” to make a connection between suicides and benefit rules despite the DWP having been shown to acknowledge that link very publicly in a number of cases. 

    Best of all and most relevant to this, in response to Paul Grey’s second independent review of PIP way back in 2015 the government said that “it has replaced the term ‘Planned Intervention’ with a more appropriate descriptor of the process – Award Review; updated its guidance for case managers and health professionals; and is conducting initial testing for potential improvements to the award reviews process.”

    So, both the question and her answer to the question in April referred to something which hasn’t existed for 3 years! Not perhaps the best start. Then she refers to PIP being paid at “8 rates”. To anyone not in the know that sounds like there are 8 different levels of PIP when in fact there’s only standard or enhanced rate for each component. It’s a clever use of words because of course there are 8 possible different combinations of payment. It nicely illustrates how even the smallest detail gets twisted.

    So, there have indeed been no planned interventions because they haven’t been termed that for 3 years! 

    The question is also a typically bad one. Had she been asked rather more bluntly how many people in receipt of 10 year awards had subsequently had them changed I am confident the answer would have been that either she had no data or would have been forced to give an answer that was considerably more than zero.



  • Government_needs_reformGovernment_needs_reform Member Posts: 850 Pioneering
    edited May 2018
    @mikehughescq Thanks Mike for that fine full expaination.

    That's a serious amount of failures this minister has made, I diden't realise the catalog of lies moved that far with her I'm now more depressed than when I started my unforgettable journey with the DWP.

    Again I picked the right member name for use on this site and now I have another (she is a joke) I knew things where bad bit this is just blatant crap.

    God help us.

    edited to add..

     Action against this all needs to be taken and them removed and jumped on from a bloody great hight, how on earth can they keep doing this to us its so, so wrong. 

    We all need act hard towards this unfair treatment of the disabled, as I said before I will be a one man army if it's my last breath I take.
    ⬇️
    I created one of the campaign election video for Labour, and Jeremy Corbyn,
    This is a new version of Emeli Sande, Hope "You Are Not Alone
    I highlighted everything that's wrong with this country from benefits, NHS etc, but now we have to put up with the hate now. 

    You can see the video here.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5o8hRHh9IY


  • sue66sue66 Member Posts: 124 Pioneering
    Matilda said:
    The Tribunal judge said he wasn't fixing a term because by rheumatoid arthritis is never going to improve.  But the medical geniuses at the DWP might think they know better.  However, in 10 years time (the time after which ongoing awards usually are reviewed) PIP might have been overhauled into something approaching sanity.  We can but hope...M

    Well thats good to read this morning Maltida. Think more people with 
    rheumatoid arthritis should be given more than 3 years like my hubby got, as said is never going to improve. Hubby was on high rate when on DLA but like many was taken down to standard rate for PIP.Just glad he never had a mobility car as we would be without transport now.  He could have,maybe should have appealed but didn't want to risk coming away with nothing!
  • Sam_ScopeSam_Scope Member Posts: 7,732 Disability Gamechanger
    Can we all please remember that we want the community to be a safe and supportive place. Please make sure your messages respect other users’ views and suggestions, even if you don’t agree with them.

    Take care to present your views tactfully and remember that humour may be misinterpreted.

    Scope
    Senior online community officer
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