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Won an appeal at court for PIP now got a letter asking for statement of reason

dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
edited October 2017 in Ask a benefits advisor
Hoping someone can help me out here
Won an appeal at court for my partners pip 28th of April this year two weeks after got a letter from dwp saying they were asking for statement of reason for the court as consider leave for appeal its been 29 days and still not heardfrom dwp as any one else had the same issues after winning appeal the stress is horrible dont know what to do next for the best all adive welcome and i am mist gratefull

Replies

  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    Hello dodo76

    The procedure to challenge a First Tier Tribunal decision is lengthy, and there are 4 stages. I have explained the first 2 stages in detail, and then given a brief explanation of stage 3 and 4.

    Stage 1
    When the DWP are thinking about challenging a tribunals decision they must first ask for full written reasons for the decision. The DWP must make this request within 1 month of the tribunal decision.  Given that they notified you 2 weeks after the hearing, it looks like they have made an in time request for the reasons.

    Once the Tribunal have received this request the chair of the tribunal will provide a written statement to you and the DWP explaining why they awarded PIP.  In my experience it can take up to 12 weeks for the written statement to be sent out.

    Stage 2
    Once the DWP have received the statement of reasons they then have to make a formal written request to the First Tier Tribunal stating why the tribunal who decided your partners appeal made an error of law in reaching their decision.  An error of law is for example that the have not adequately explained how they made their decision, or misunderstood the law.  This formal request is called permission to appeal, and must be made within 1 month of the date of the tribunals written statement of reasons.

    If the DWP believe that they have a case to argue, and request permission to appeal, you will be sent a copy of this request. A Tribunal Judge who was not involved with your appeal will then look at the request to see if permission to appeal should be granted. You will not be asked to attend another hearing for this issue to be considered.  

    If permission to appeal is granted it is likely that your case will then proceed to the Upper Tribunal, if permission to appeal is not granted then the DWP will then have to ask the Upper Tribunal to look again at their request for permission to appeal. In my experience this second part of the procedure can take around 6 weeks.

    Stage 3
    An Upper Tribunal will consider your case, and either decide that the First Tier Tribunal did make an error of law, or that the decision to award PIP is correct.  The Upper Tribunal generally considers cases on paper, which means that only in very rare cases will you be asked if you would like to attend the hearing.

    I would strongly advise you to seek advice from a local advice agency, Law Centre or CAB if your case does go to an Upper Tribunal.

    Stage 4
    If an error of law was made by the tribunal, you will be asked to attend another PIP hearing so that another Tribunal can decide if you are entitled to PIP and at what rates (if awarded).

    If an error of law was not made by the tribunal then PIP are extremely likely to accept the decision and award PIP as decided by the tribunal.

    At these early stages you will not have much input, as ultimately it will be for the DWP to persuade a tribunal judge that there has been an error of law. It is only if the case proceeds to the Upper Tribunal, will you be asked for your opinion, and thus as advised above at this stage it is best to seek further advice.

    Regards

    Maria





    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Firstly thank you Marie for all your help and advice 
    I have to say i feel so fed up with the whole thing now and feel like giving up the whole stress is getting to much now and affecting our life and health , 
    What was the point of the dwp rep sirting there in court never once questioning any thing only asking two questions that were of no legal legislation at all surely its there job to point anythung of this kind to start with not sit there like dummies for almost 2 hours i feel so angry with the way the dwp treat people my partner as lost his hypo awareness which we have tried get back but to no effect i wish the person from the dwp came to live with ys and see just how stressful life is .i also wonder how many others are having the same issues as us rant over 
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox

    Oh no! Don't feel too disheartened @dodo76 !

    An independent tribunal have determined that your appeal is successful - as Maria says, this can only be appealed if the Tribunal made an error in law, not simply because the DWP disagree.

    It may well be the case that having read the reasons the DWP do not appeal and just decide to pay up.

    Let us know how it goes!

    Mary

    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • TiggerJones51TiggerJones51 Posts: 3Member Listener
    Hi dodo76, I have a similar problem to you. I am appointee for my son. His DLA was stopped early last year. His application for PIP was refused so I asked for mandatory reconsideration and appeal. He underwent a really stressful assessment with an Atos assessor. She completely discounted everything I said and made some very inappropriate remarks to my son, which I complained about but that complaint was never even acknowledged. We went to tribunal on 25 th February this year. It was a very stressful time for both my son and myself but he was awarded standard benefit. DWP did not send a representative to the hearing. On 27 th Feb., I had a letter from DWP stating they had applied to HMCTS for a statement of reasons as they wished to apply for permission to appeal the decision. They said they normally have one month to consider applying for permission and that starts from when the tribunals statement of reasons has been issued. I take that to be the date on the covering letter with said statement. I received the full statement of reasons together with clerk of the court notes on 5th May but the letter was dated 3 rd of May.
    I have heard nothing, so today, 7 th June, I contacted HMCTS to see if they had received an appeal application and the answer was no. I was advised to contact DWP.
    I spoke to a lady at DWP for an update. I stated that as far as I was concerned, DWP s month in which to appeal was up and she agreed. She said the last notes on my sons file showed statement of reasons had been received on 9 th May but had not been acted on so she would pass the information on and someone would phone me either this evening or tomorrow to discuss it. I am worried now that they will count their month from when they received the statement of reasons and will rush an appeal through tomorrow!!! My husband is now cross with me because he said I should have given it another week!!!! This is affecting all of us. It's so unfair. What is the point of having a tribunal with all the incurred expense!!!! It's crazy!!!!!
    How did you get on with your partners pip???

  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    Hi @TiggerJones51

    It is so stressful waiting isn't it, but if I can provide you with any relief, the date when the 'one month' starts from is the date on the top of the written statement of reasons letter. Therefore if the date of the letter was the 3rd May and the DWP hadn't requested permission to appeal to an Upper Tribunal by this time, then they are out of time.
    Unfortunately, I am seeing a lot of cases where the DWP are requesting written reasons for the decision of the tribunal but not going any further which does indeed cause a lot of additional and unnecessary stress to peoples lives.
    It may help to phone PIP and ask for a call back from a decision maker to explain when they are going to start your payments (including payment of arrears). When you initially call the PIP number you get through to a contact centre and if you want more information about your case you can ask for this call back. If this doesn't work then you could contact your MP (if your results for your area are in!) and ask them to assist you in getting your payments made.

    Hope this helps,

    Laura

    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Hi guys sorry not replied lost my passwords ect lol right here is a update on the state of things 
    Dwp asked for statement of reasons which they got back in May we had to wait another nonth before we were told that the Dwp wete asking for permission to take it to upper level which was granted on the dead line date early August they can only take it on some points issue over something to do with treatment issue its now coming up to 16 months since we started the whole appeal and sadly still at the point of not getting anywear , the stress as been taking its toll on both our health cant see an end to it myself know we are in for another long wait every one else we know tgat as got to appeal after us as won and been sorted  its hard to keep your chin up the thing that gets me is my partners list of hypo awearness will not come back its gone due to the length of time he as been diebetic over 30 years yet the dwp feel the need to had to the stress and dont fully understand the illness and its issues  
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    dodo76dodo76,

    I'm really sorry to hear that the DWP are appealing further. It's difficult to tell what the error of law is but as Maria suggests, for an Upper Tribunal appeal we would strongly advise you to get help from Citizens Advice, a law centre or your MP's surgery. 

    Although the appeal will almost certainly be held without you or your partner having to attend, it's a good idea to get advice because there might be arguments or evidence which an advice agency can help you to prepare.

    I'm so sorry this is happening to you and your partner. Unfortunately it seems to be getting more common, which is no comfort to you!

    I don't know what your overall situation is but you might want to ask the CAB or a local advice agency for a benefits check in the meantime, particularly as you say that your health is also suffering.

    I really hope you are able to get some locally based advice. If not though, don't despair, the Upper Tribunal will look at all the paperwork and you can still submit anything you think is relevant. Keep within any time limits the Upper Tribunal Office gives you to send them any responses.

    Because Upper Tribunal decisions can take a long time to come through, another thing to consider is whether you simply want to claim PIP again. I'm not sure if this is relevant - if your partner has an award of PIP but it isn't as high as you think it should be, it may be best to leave things as they are. But if your partner is getting no PIP at all, there is nothing to prevent him from claiming again. Because of the nature of the claim form, if you are able to get help with filling it in, that is always a good idea.

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Firstly thank you all for your post  as of today still no news we have stopped waiting for the post and doing our best not to think of it 
    The letter we got to say the dwp could take it to the upper level stated that they could not take the award away but had the right to have a section relooked at sonething to do with treatment and help my oartner needs daily i think its actually over the rate of pay been awarded at the hearing its just a case of waiting it out we have got a guy who as 30 yrs dealing with dwp and appeals working with us 
    Once again thank you for all your comment advice i hope that every one in the same vote gets sorted fast xx
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    I’m having the same trouble my pip was stopped on the 17th May appealed and won the the first tier appeal now they want a statement of reasons in which I am still awaiting
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    clark30,

    It's possible that once the DWP get the statement of reasons they will decide not to appeal further, in which case you should get your money. Unfortunately, it's impossible to say at this stage what they will do. Hopefully, it won't be stretched out for too long

    dodo76,
    It sounds as if you've got a very experienced person helping you which is great. Back in March there were some changes to the PIP rules to do with medication and therapy, and I wonder if the DWP are talking about this? However, the new rules should only apply to decisions made on or after the rules were changed (16th March 2017).

    It's difficult to know without looking at the paperwork, but it sounds as if you are in good hands anyway so it's probably not helpful to say more here. It will take a long time for this to be resolved I'm afraid due to the very slow moving of the tribunal system.

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    It’s been a month so far still haven’t recieved my statement of reasons am thinking about phoning the dwp to find out what is happening it said on the letter they have a month and it has been that Just thinking what to do for the best
  • PippaScopePippaScope Posts: 1,102Member, Administrator Scope community team
    Hi @clark30, do keep us updated on your situation and we'll do our best to support you!
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Rang them and it is still with the judge it’s Just awaiting game atm
  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Hi all 
    Clark30  hang in there it wont be long before you hear i am sure , hopefull you wont  be in the same place i am and you will get sorted 
    As for us guys well we are still waiting almost 18 months since the start of this nightmare of waiting around as soon as we get news i will post 
    We are at a stage now were we just dont think about the issue and jyst work on the daily issue because the stress of all this was affecting our life and health we know that we are in for a long wait as its 18 months now i use to get stressed out about how the powers that be mess with your life and how its hard making do when you cant do anything to sort the issue as its down to others .xx
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Still awaiting for the judge to sort this out it has been 8 weeks since my statement of reasons was requested how much longer I’m sure they have only 1 month
  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    They only have one month for the statement of reason from the daye on the letter , give them a ring to see if they have had it see what they have to say but i think it could they have no reason and may be they are sorting you payment 
    Let me know how you get on 

    As for us sadly we are no closer to getting a ruling than we were  a few months ago but will up date you all when we actully know something 

  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    The pip people keep telling me that all I have to do is wait for them to recieve my state meant of reasons 
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    All I keep getting told it’s with the judge I phoned dwp and all I got told was to wait for the statement of reasons this is causing me more anxiety and I don’t feel like going out or even getting dressed
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    Hi clark30,

    If you are waiting for a tribunal statement of reasons from a judge there is no time limit when it has to be done by. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep phoning the tribunals service and asking them to chase it up though!

    Lee
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Hi Clark 30 
    Just keep phoning them and try not to worry with all the news in the press i think the dwp will be pulled out with a back log of cases 
    I fully understand just how your feeling because we are 18 months and still not got any news to share we got to the point were we allowed the stress of it all to effect our health and came to a point were we just said thats it no more worring about it our health as to cone first and just put it to the back of our minds and life hang in there 
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    THE dwp Just say on the letter that they have a month to apply for the statement of reasons it’s all false it doesn’t state that how long u have to wait for the judge to do it
  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Every thing with the DWP is all about mind games they want you to give it up just try and carry on your life as hard as it is 
    Look at all the stories in the news over the same sort of issues the DWP have made so many mistakes with cases sooner or later things will turn around for us all hang in there 
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    I hope so life is getting so much harder the judge needs to hurry up apparently the dwp are chasing this up but I think it alls lies 
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    clark30,

    let us know when you hear. Hopefully the DWP won't take it any further once they've got the statement of reasons.

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Phoned the tribunal today and the dwp got told it was still with the judge it’s been 12 weeks still getting told just wait for the statement of reasons 
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Still waiting phoned them again it’s been 13 weeks now
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    clark30clark30,

    I think this is too long to wait and you should complain to HMCTS, as it seems the delay is at their end. I know they are very overloaded with tribunals, but 13 weeks is too long.

    I'd make the point that the delay means DWP won't pay you and it is also adding to your anxiety. Might be worth telling your MP about this too, as the DWP are asking for reasons far more often - which adds to the delays.

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    Clark 3o 
    I know your getting fed up by all the delays but just keep at them and complaine to Hmct see if that shakes them up a little 
    We are still playingvthe waiting game ourselfs only with us it on the upper tirb judge to look at our case coming up to 18 months sonce we started the whole appeal leant to just roll with things after it started to effect our health but find the whole thing stressfull for the dwp just seem to ho out of there way to block you at every turn and keep moving the goal post 
    I have noticed of the past we that they have been talking about the rose in fraud there is in claimsin the press seems they are trying to take the heat of there short comings with both ESA n PIP claims that are appealing 
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Wrote a complaint to Hmrc let’s see what happens now
  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Wrote a complaint to hmrc still getting told my statement of reasons is with the judge the courts clerk has emailed the judge 6 times for the statement of reasons  it’s been 13 weeks this is really bad 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,562Member Chatterbox
    It's no excuse but I think that the tribunals service are now inundated with requests from DWP for statements of reasons.
  • dodo76dodo76 Posts: 17Member Listener
    I think the wait is due to the tribunal service been pulled out with appeals  just keep at them clark 30 i know its stressful but we are the lucky one i have seen a few things in the press over the past couple of weeks were sadly many people have died before they gave got to the appeal which i find personal upsetting hang in there 
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    edited December 2017
    clark30,

    Might be worth talking to your MP about this. All the requests for statements of reasons are part of the DWP defending the many PIP appeals they are losing and trying to stretch out the time before they pay people. It's causing huge stress and financial difficulty and in your case, the problem is with the tribunal service as well as with DWP, even if it isn't the tribunal service's fault.

    As well as trying to speed up your own case, your MP might be interested in trying to investigate and improve DWP policy so they don't ask for reasons in so many cases!

    Will


    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    My mp can’t help due to legal reasons was told really stressing out now don’t know what to do next  it’s been nearly 14 weeks nuffin has changed
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 1,793Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    Hello clark30

    I am sorry to hear that your MP cannot assist. It is unclear why the MP cannot help.  Do you think the MP misunderstood that you wanted help to complain about how long you have been waiting for the full reasons for the tribunal decision rather than help with challenging a Tribunal decision? 

    Please post again one you receive  a response to your complaint.

    Maria

    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Jayne Knights
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

  • clark30clark30 Posts: 24Member Listener
    Have heard from my complaint and was told again it has been sent to the judge then phoned CAB as was told if nothing gets resolved my jan 11 next year then contact them again  I am just going around in circles
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