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Just found out l have only been awarded standard mobility on pip and was on high on dla.

annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
Need to appeal as l was on higher mobility on dla and they have just took it down to standard on piP and l do need the higher. I have spina bifiad and have to you crutches and they decided l can walk 50 to 200 metres with stopping at times, even though l can't and never said l did. I said l could walk maximum of 15 mins with stopping to rest can't stand without crutches and definitely can't walk that far at all 
Please help


  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    Hi Anne
    First thing to do is request a copy of the HCP report (PA4)from the DWP. This will show you what the hcp scored and also what you need to argue against.
    The first stage of appeal is to request a Mandatory Reconsideration (MR)
    To do this you need to ring the DWP and also put your request in writng, you need to do this within four weeks of the date of the decision letter

    If you can You will need to supply new evidence to support your  case ie. GP letter etc.
    Unfortunately MR's rarely change the decision so be prepared to appeal to the tribunal where success is much higher.

    From your post, your biggest problem is that you stated that you can walk for 15 mins. They have a scale of time = distance so you will need to show that this is incorrect
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank Cockley rebel

    All l know is l can't get out because of pain, only go to hospital and doctors appointments
    The one that came to do assessment asked about getting out and l said only manage those appointments and l think she asked how  far l could walk in metres and l said l didn't know about metres so she said how many mins than and not even sure if l said 15 mins but l know own l said l can only do a few steps and then have to stop .  But the decision maker apparently has decided l can stand and then move more than 50 Metres and no more than 200
     But even if l was able to walk 15 mins it definitely wouldn't be that amount of metres and my balance and walking is poor, l even fall right over at an hospital appointment last week
    Really confused 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    Ok going forward I will help all I can and I am sure that many others here will also.

    So first thing is to ask for a copy of the HCP report. Ring the DWP first thing on monday.
    Then, look at the date of your decision letter. you have 28 days to request an MR. Hopefully the report will arrive before then. But no matter, a week before the 28 days are up ring the DWP again and request an MR. Follow this up with a letter requesting the same.
    When you get the report come back and we can go through how to best overturn the wrong decision.
    Please feel free to ask any questions or just pop in for a chat, I know how stressful all this can be

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Cockley rebel
    There is also points l am not happy with on the daily living but l will tell you more once l have report through thank you 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    you are very welcome.
    When you have the report we can make a battle plan, HCP often make assumption and opinions which are hard to fight. Facts are what will win your award.

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 264Member Chatterbox
    You have to remember that the criteria has changed. Do you have evidence stating you can only walk less than 20 meters?
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    I can get evidence, from my doctor. It has been suggested a wheelchair may be an option but l am still not at that stage myself. My doctor is brilliant and has wrote letters supporting my mental health and mobility and my difficulty in walking and being pretty much house boundbut not given an amount of how far l can walk 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox

    This is a fairly new question asked by assessors: how far can you walk, without relating it to distance, to trip you up.

    I urge people if asked this question state how far you can walk without experiencing pain etc on a bad day, so measure it beforehand.  If it's one minute to walk 20 metres before pain/fatigue/stiffness sets in on a bad day, then you can walk 20 metres before you need to stop and rest.

    In your MR application you can clarify and say that the 15 minutes includes a number of stops.

  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    I did say that and that my asthma leaves me out of breath if l try to walk anywhere but nothing about that.they did say about me having to stop and rrst 3 or 4 times in the decision but l also said to the lady assessor that that was only if l had appointments at doctors or hospital as she asked how did l get yo appointments and l said transport as l couldn't walk that far to actually get there.rest of time it was only from my room to bathroom, which is next door as the pain is that bad but there is nothing said of that. Not sure even if it is down in her report  
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox

    You have good grounds for appeal.  You have to request an MR before you can appeal.  Only 20% of MRs succeed but 65% of Tribunal appeals do.

    The Atos paramedic asked me for how long could I walk, intentionally left almost to the last when I was very tired after the inquisition.  I'd never timed for how long I could walk so, off the top of my head, I said three or four minutes.  I was awarded standard mobility.  In my MR request I said three of four minutes to walk 20 metres on a really bad day.

    At Tribunal the doctor asked for how long could I walk.  I asked, did he mean for how long before I needed to stop and rest?  He just repeated, how long could I walk for?  We argued a bit and then he asked how long could I walk around a shop for?  I replied about 10 minutes, including rest stops, after which I'd have to go and sit down for a while.  He settled for that.  Tribunal awarded me enhanced mobility.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    As you have a helpfull GP ask for a letter specific about your mobility that you cannot walk more than 20 meters on a good day without severe distress and the danger of falling. reference to a wheel chair would not hurt you case for PIP as the criteria is to br able to stand and walk.
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank you everyone, l am really grateful.  I feel so scared and sick about going forward but l am so annoyed with them. With the dla like many l had the higher and indefinitely 
    Can l ask to see the report or is that only further down the line?
    Like lady before l was asked the question right at the end and had know idea what to say as l have never timed myself only knowing it's painful to walk and l have to stop all the time and lean again anything available so l just said 15 mins off the top of my head as the doctors and hospital rooms are not directly if front of you as you get out of your transport 
    My 15 mins of walking is more like 45 mins as l having to stop every few mins for at least 5 mins  but it's difficult as l have never timed myself, like l that is only on a day l would have appointment, rest of time is just back and forth to toilet and that can be painful enough 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    Yes you should ask for the report first thing monday morning
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    edited August 13
    @annehughes I've read all your posts here and I would say you don't need to mention you ever said you could walk for 15 mins. even if the assessor put that in her report. You don't need to lie and say you didn't say it just tell them in your MR what you're telling us about not being able to walk 20 metres. Don't be put off by the small percentage that win their MR it is possible if you've got strong evidence and are very determined. If 15 mins is mentioned again, as @Matilda said, say you would only have walked 20 metres in that time as you need to stop and get your breath back for 10 of the 15 mins. most of the days. You can ring the DWP PIP helpline anytime before Appeal and ask for a call back from a Decision Maker to discuss your claim and then you can tell them what you need to clarify about your walking. Also you can ask what other evidence they need to get your mobility raised to the higher level. If they ask for specific evidence and you sent it to them they're much more likely to increase your award. That worked for me. Good Luck...
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    Try not to worry, we are here to help in any way we can  There is also alot of usefull information on this site.
    If you can, try and get help from the CAB or similar.

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox

    Yes, you can ask PIP to send you a copy of the assessor's report.

    There's 15 minutes' walking  - and then there's 15 minutes' walking.  15 minutes walking without a stop - and then there's 15 minutes walking including several rest stops.

    Even the DWP rules say that a claimant can walk 20 metres then stop for a minute, then walk another 20 metres, stop and rest, and so on.  And still qualify for enhanced PIP.  I don't think there's any limit to the number of times the pattern can be repeated.

    If you have to go to Tribunal, Tribunals are impartial and are interested in what you can and can't do.   Walking in slowly on crutches will count well in your favour, because people tend to be impressed by visible disabilities - regarded as strong evidence.

    The doctor at the Tribunal might well put the 'How long can you walk for?' question - but you'll have plenty of time before then to prepare your answer.
  • WaterLilyWaterLily Posts: 47Member Whisperer
    Hi annehughes, I too have Spina Bifida and I was,like you,getting high rate mobility until I was assessed for PIP. 
    I was then downgraded to standard rate mobility on PIP. 
    I did an MR and was successful. 
    In my appeal letter I focused on the pointers;
    • safely in a way that is unlikely to cause harm either to you or anyone else, either during the activity or afterwards
    • to an acceptable standard
    • repeatedly as often as is reasonably required
    • in a reasonable time period - should take you no more than twice as long someone without your condition. 
    I do have a lot of pain issues with my legs and ankles, but that didn't seem to make much of a difference to the assessor at the time. 
    I pointed out that I felt very unstable on my feet. That both my ankles are turning in and are very unsteady and I do stumble,a lot. 
    I don't feel safe when walking and it is not to an acceptable standard. 

    Once you have read through your assessors report, I hope you appeal the decision. 
  • Colin1958Colin1958 Posts: 2Member Listener
    edited August 13

    The important thing is to INSIST that any PIP/WCA assessment is recorded. I know for a fact that Maximus are extremely reluctant to record assessments. Typically they will cite a lack of recording equipment. My answer to that is if they cannot afford recording equipment their contract with the DWP should be cancelled.

  • Barrylad1957Barrylad1957 Posts: 22Member Whisperer
    Sorry to hear you've lost out, its terrible that they're doing things like this to people who need all the help they can get. I hope you get it sorted, and that it all works out for you. Ref: what @Matilda said earlier in this thread, I spoke to an advocate the other day about my upcoming WCA, and she told me that they are asking new, weird questions at both WCA and Pip assessments now. Good luck with the appeal, keep our fingers crossed for you.

  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank you waterlily
    I walk with feet pointed out which as it happened last week at a hospital for another condition l fell right over due to my foot getting caught in one of my crutches as l was leaving the room, it was awful, l felt such fool and so stupid but the nursing staff were lovely.
    I am definitely going to contact cab and yourself a as l just not good with how to put things and my aniexty is now through the roof and trying my hardest not to start scratching my arms as that is something l do but hopefully l will be able to see my mental health counsiler this week 
  • cher09cher09 Posts: 1Member Listener
    I had my disability car taken away as pip said I did not qualify for it although DLA I was on higher indefinitely. I tried to appeal but they still said no, so now my independence that I was getting back has gone because my driving license states that I can only drive an automatic that is adapted
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Wasn't going to carry on thinking about this today because of stress but l have just been looking at my daily living and l am not happy with that either, it's mostly different from what l put on my pip form and said to the assessor what my daily living struggles are 
    Decider said l need an aid or appliances to wash or bath, yes they do help but l also need someone with me as l can't wash below wash myself and also need help to get on and off bath board, so l can only have a shower or wash when someone is with me .
    So that is different 
    And the other one is he d3cided preparing food, again with aids or appliances but l stated that l need someone to do that as l can't not stand or balance without my crutches  so l have no hands available and l can't bend to get to oven and also l have reduced grip in my right had due to sugergy on my little finger from dog bite had phsyco from last August to January this year and was told would never have full grip as it's your little finger that makes you grip and decision maker said that l have good grip in both hands.
    And even though l had difficulty with sitting and standing from a chair all of the activities l could do successfully with aids rather than support of another person majority of days and that includes dressing which can't do myself lower body at all and l rely on my son everyday and can struggle at times with top half 
    Basically my son does everything for me and they are saying l can do it with aids 
    So do l appeal theses as well as the mobitly and walking 
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Cher09 l am so sorry that is what l am scared about. The isolation and just the fact that they seem to not listen to you 
    Did you go all the way to tribunal?
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    They will look at both parts when you appeal. If you can show that you meet the criteria then you should do so.
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox

    Assessors have an agenda: to make claimants seem as little disabled as possible.  I went from highest rate both components DLA to standard rate PIP both components - then to enhanced rate PIP both components after appeal.
    The Tribunal seemed unimpressed that assessors had reduced my benefit from high rate (that I'd been on for nearly 20 years) to standard after the DLA/PIP changeover.

    Tribunals are impartial and look at all the evidence again.  After having been to one Tribunal I would not be afraid to go to another.  Though they asked some grilling questions - so have your wits about you!.

    Scope have a guide to MRs.  Look under Advice and information.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    This morning l have spoken to cab and have appointment on Thursday, also spoken to my mental health counsiler and have manged to get to see him, got doctors appointment on Friday to let her know what has happened and been in contact with dwp and they are sending out copy of report and also have asked for medical evidence from the phsyco regarding my reduced grip in my hand, so have that to send as the said l had good grip in both hands 
    Really tired and stressed now so that's me done for the day. I need to rest to be able to get through this appointments at the end of week
    Thank you everybody who has helped over weekend, just really appreciate it xx
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    Well done Anne. You have done exactly the right things. The CAB should be able to take you forward.
    Please let us know how you get on.

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Hi been to see my mental health counsiler and cab today, counsiler as said l also have ptsd to had to my other mental health illnesses, l was attacked last year and had to have hand surgery and it's only just hit me in the last few months as it was my own dog that did it ( he had a seizure and when mad)

    Cab said to write a diary of how my disability and illnesses  affect my daily living, already doing this, question is do l send this with Mr stuff or not and l have done 3 days so far and used 2 a4 pieces of paper is that to much ?
    First day it was alot more as l was explain8ng why l couldn't do things and why son had to help day 2 and 3  were just on one side each of a4
    Hope people can understand my question 
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @annehughes Yes send it with your MR. It doesn't matter how long it is but remember if you want them to actually read it and not put it on one side it might be better to stick to examples of when and why you need help with the activities you want extra points for, rather than going into every little detail. I'm the same about all the false results for grip and upper body strength. I'm now on higher rate mobility but only standard rate for DL. I've accepted my award for now but am carrying on getting evidence and also have got ICE the Independent Complaint's Examiner investigating my complaint about the lies written on my assessment report. I'm also bringing a case against ATOS/DWP under the Data Protection Act because we all have rights not to have lies written,  kept on record  and used against us. 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox

    Disability Rights website have a draft PIP diary.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Hi just looked at the draft and is it better to like that rather than just like a page diary. I suppose it's easier for them to look at but l am not sure we're l could put that l can't get out of bed from laying down position   any help or ideas please        l can get off bed once son has got into sitting up position
    I am seeing Doctor this afternoon for as much medical evidence she can provide  
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @annehughes Getting in and out of bed doesn't come into PIP. It's not one of the activities so you need to have a look at the PIP points system on Benefits and Works and only describe problems you have with the list of activities. Choose each one that describes you otherwise you're giving them a lot of information they don't need.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank you l have looked, l asked that because that is one reason l wet the bed most night l have a weak bladder and obviously get get out off bed quick enough and then sometimes it's because l don't feel the need to go as l am  asleep.  During day l also can have accidents but it's more overnight 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox
    The DWP themselves, I think in the claimant guidance notes attached to the PIP claim form, say that one of the aids a claimant might use is an automatic rising bed.  But people who have difficulty getting in and out of bed don't have to use one.  Difficulty getting in and out of bed indicates weakness in several muscles and joints.

    PIP takes into account incontinence under toilet needs.  So difficulty getting out of bed in order to get to the toilet in time is relevant.

    Disability Rights and CAB websites both have good guides to claiming PIP, including descriptors and activities.  DR is particularly good but CAB make the point about not ticking 'it varies' box under walking distance - be specific and give assessors less scope to decide you can walk well on many days.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @annehughes sorry for saying getting in and out of bed isn't relevant. Go with @Matilda's advice she knows more about this than I do.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Had my report through, there are definitely lies on there and a few  can l write on it ready to show my doctor and the cab ?
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @annehughes If you mean can you write on the actual report then no. You could do a copy of it if you're able and write on the copy or better still just do a list of the lies on a separate sheet saying which page and what heading they're under.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank you and l was fine with what you said about laying down and getting out of bed
    I am however really annoyed at assossers report, she has lied and said things l didn't even say and then twisted some of the things l did say
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @annehughes ; You're not the only one, so many people have this happen to them. I had a similar report, pain was called "a twinge" I never even used the word. All my physical exercise results were wrong or made up for the ones I didn't do. She also said I took the plastic label off a water bottle whilst holding it between my knees. She obviously doesn't know it's the top you take off to have a drink which my husband did for me. I'm a long way through the complaints process and won't give up till she's made to face up to her lies. There are a lot of people fighting to get DWP to accept that a lot of assessors are dishonest which should not be happening. Hope you can sort your claim out and get what you're entitled to, don't give up. 
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    How can l word the safety pointers as l can't walk safety as l fall and stumble , assorted put l stumble but don't fully fall, l do 
    She said l could walk for 15 mins with stops again l never said that l said l can't walk much at all as always has pain but as soon as l walk l get extreme pain she decided l can walk 50m to 200m
    Also she did say on flat ground 
    Even my own doctors say l can only walk 20m 
    They are just a couple of lies
    Oh apparently she asked did l take any of my aniexty meds before the appointment and l said no, .... l take them every morning and then allowed up to 8 other ones a day but she didn't even ask the question lie 
    Another she said l said only shower once a week because of difficulty but l never said that, l have to have showers daily even though it's painful due to incontinence over night has l don't either feel the need to go or can't get there in time.  Then she said l struggle to wash  or bath lower body , l don't struggle l am unable to 
    My doctor is so annoyed with it and is behind me 100% and took alot of my paperwork and medical evidence to read and doing a letter 
    But not sure how to word mine 
    One more l said l can't bath/shower without someone being there and and she said just aids are need 
    Why do they do this 
    I was born at 27 weeks with spina bifina, christened in hospital, operation in the first 24 hours to close hole and nerve of spine.  Just got on with life and the pain never claimed dla until l was 41 and now 46 they are basically making out l can do what l can't 

    Sorry to everyone for this long message 
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @Matilda can you help with the walking question please. @annehughes  If you have never said either on your claim form or at the assessment that you CAN walk for 15 mins then you have nothing to deny. All you have to do is say the assessor has not taken into consideration your Medical Evidence from your Doctor that you can only walk 20 metres at the most before you have to stop for a rest because of the pain. You can also say you stumble a lot and are at risk of falling therefore you can't walk any distance reliably and safely.
                 Whatever you write in your MR put after it Ref: Dr's letter dated .....This helps the Decision Maker to connect what you are saying with the proof from your Doctor. 
                I know how you feel about the lies but try not to think about them too much for your MR letter just keep saying that the assessor did not use your medical evidence and then say what help you need and why you need it for each activity you want them to look at again. For example you need help to shower because of pain when you bend and that you have a balance problem therefore are at risk of falling. Say the assessor overlooked your incontinence when saying you only shower once a week and that you need to shower every day. 
               What I mean is your MR isn't the time to say bad things about your assessor but just to tell the Decision Maker what evidence she overlooked when she wrote her report. The Decision Maker will send the evidence you say has been ignored back to be looked at by another assessor so that's why you have to keep telling the Decision Maker which evidence needs to be used properly. OK?
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Ah ok thank you, even in my cq form l stated 20 mtrs  and the doctor gave a letter stated that l needed home visit due to mobility of only 20 mtrs walking and mental health, then just a list of my other conditions but didn't really go into detail as it was a letter basically asking for home visit

    That is stated on the front of report that that was used for evidence but obviously not the 20 mtrs walking
    Doctor is doing a letter with  as much detail as she can now and l also have  letter for sugery done last year which has left my hand unable to grip well but they said l had good grip both hands so that is going in Mr as well 
    Thanks you for helping, this week has been awful
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 1,053Member Chatterbox
    @wildlife and @annehughes

    Wildlife, I think you have answered the walking question.  Annehughes, in your first post on here you have said that you told the assessor that you could walk 15 minutes with stops.  This does not mean that you can walk 50-200 metres without stops.

    Even the DWP say that a claimant can walk 20 meters, stop for a rest, walk another 20 meters, rest and so on.  I don't think there's a limit to the number of times a claimant can repeat this process and still qualify for enhanced mobility.

    I suggest that you say you can only walk 20 meters before you need to stop and rest.  The 15 minutes includes rest stops and within this time you can only walk 20 meters before you need to stop and rest.  You most certainly cannot walk 15 minutes without stopping.

    The Atos paramedic asked me for how long I could walk and I estimated three or four minutes.  In my MR I clarified this and said three or four minutes to walk 20 meters on a really bad day.

    The Tribunal doc asked for how long can I walk.  Eventually, he settled for 10 minutes including rest stops.  I was awarded enhanced mobility.  15 minutes, including stops, isn't much longer than 10 minutes including stops.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    @Matilda Thank you for you help but l really don't know what to do about the walking and 15mins because l don't even think l said that , l can remember saying l don't know how long  l can walk for but l can walk to the bathroom and back which is next to my bedroom with constant pain anymore than that pain becomes extreme and she said l haven't actually fell right over and l that is true because l do there are a number of things that she has said different to what l told her
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    @Matilda Sorry that should read not true about the falling as l do fall weekly 
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 712Member Chatterbox
    @annehughes ;
                            You don't need to mention 15 mins just because the assessor said that. All you have to do is tell the truth exactly as you're telling us and tell the Decision Maker your Doctor's letter is on it's way if you can't send it with your MR letter send it as soon as you can with Mandatory reconsideration and your NI number on as separate piece of paper.Stop worrying about what your report said about how long or how far you can walk. Decision Makers know assessor's get it wrong. You have strong evidence from your Doctor and another letter on it's way so just write the truth about how you walk and send in your Doctor's second letter as soon as you can.
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank you l will try to stop stressing and l will let you all know how l get on . Have been told Doctor will have letter ready by Thursday 
    I not to bad in week as my daughter calls me and l talk to her about my worries but at weekends l don't speak to anyone apart from my son and l rely on him for so much don't like to give him added stress as he is already worrying what will happen next year if he goes to university who will help me 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 183Member Talkative
    Forget about the lies and misrepresentations, you will only score points for proving that you fullfil the criteria. It is likely that your MR will only be rubberstamped and that you will have to take your case to appeal, I think that you are more likely to get a positive outcome with the tribunal and that your medical evidence will hold more weight with them, they are more likely to accept your mobility evidence,the DWP tend to give more weight to HCP reports even if the evidence suggests otherwise. Tribunal will take a look at all the evidence, fairly and without bias.
    You should still present your best case for your MR, there is no point holding back evidence for your appeal
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • annehughesannehughes Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Thank you 
    I am going to try to have a day without worrying today. I going to show my doctor the report tomorrow just so she knows what there are saying but was annoyed with them when l went to see her on Friday
    Thank you again for help on this site from everyone 
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