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PIP Predicament

treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener

hi, scope community,

new here, have learning difficulties so spelling can be a problem, please try and see past errors. have fought a lengthy PIP Battle for 2 years now. The tribunal judge held a secret PIP Hearing and excluded me from attending, where she convened a full panel, including a Rtd Psychiatrist, where they issued judgment that it was in my best interest not to attend hearings?


they allowed my appeal, and revised DWP decision but made no award for PIP, and DWP have not made any intention to pay DWP. Can anyone help?

Replies

  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,250Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hi and welcome treemanhart
    Can you tell us a little bit more  ?
    What was your original award ?
    was this a new claim or a transfer from DLA ?
    when was the tribunal ?
    Have you had a decision letter or a notification from the tribunal ?
    Do you have an appointee or any other support ?
    Have you asked for help from CAB or welfare rights ?

    The more information you can give will be very helpful in pointing you in the right direction

    CR

    PS as long as you can put your point across we will do our best to understand, not inerested in spelling or grammar and never was :)
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    hello Cockny rebel

    thnks for reply, 

    my oridginal award was DLA both componants L/R

    I was a DLA -pip transer

    the tribunal hearing was 1st listed for the 27/4/17 to hear the appeal, but when we arrived it was postponed on the day, becuse the judge had convened a full tribunal to hear a queastion on law. and the Doctor appointed had a conflict of interest. i was supported by a friend who happens to be a Doctor, and another firend who happens to be my Landlord and a health professional.

    DWP were presnt, and also a Disability panelist.i had been asked by my friedn the Doctor to ask why a full panel had been convened to hear a queastion of law, which was -had i provided good reason for not attending the consultation with ATOS-

    the judge at the outset of the hearing declared the eharing to be an informal conversation, and then proceeded to condcut a mental capacity assmsnet upon me and then turned the hearing into a case management directions hearing.

    the appeal was then relisted for a date in the future, to which i was never imofrmed of a new date. on the 29/7/17 the tribunal served their PIP Judgment upon me after they held a secret hearing on the 27/7/17, where they held a full panel.

    the decesion was that my appeal was allowed, and the respondets decesion to refuse to pay PIP was revised.

    as explained above support was from professional freinds

    these are the facts of the case albeit very breif. hope this helps you and you can posible point me in the best direction, but i think also there are others matters atteched to this case, which i think i need to be explained and looked at with a specialit mental health adviser or any other legal experienced adviser?

    all best
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,250Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Forgive me if I have misunderstood

    The criteria for PIP is different from the old DLA and not everyone will meet the requirements even if they were on lifetime DLA.
    Hidden disabilities such as MH issues seem to be hard hit.

    As I read your reply your appeal was about you failing to attend an assessment without good reason. The tribunal has accepted your reason for not attending which means that your claim is still live. If this is the case then you still need to have an assessment for a decision to be made.

    As you have said this is a complex matter and you really do need to get trained advice from CAB, Welfare rights or another chaity that deals with your condition.
    Not my area of expertise but maybe MIND would be a place to start.

    www.mind.org.uk

    I am sure that one of the advisors on here will be able to give you better info, but I wanted to reply to you so that you didn't think you were being ignored.

    I hope that helps, please post again if I can help further or if you just need to chat

    CR


    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    many thnks CR,

    Good info,

    i am hoping one of advisers from scope wil post a reply?

    one of the main issues is, the DWP sumissions to tribunal stated, that i had given piror notice of good reason for not attending then i could be entitlened to PIP. The tribunal ruled i did give prior good notice, so i think theres a queastion of backdated payment before any new assessment is conducted. i agrree its a complex matter

    TM
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,250Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I may be talking out of my backside now, so if I am wrong someone will put me straight.

    Your claim is transfer from DLA to PIP, Currently you have not attended an assessment so no decision has been made as to what, if any, award you are entitled to.
    The tribunal has ruled that your original claim should be allowed to progress.
    When you are assessed, which could be on paper, if successful your claim should be back dated to when your DLA stopped, which is what would normally happen, DLA stops and is replaced by PIP award.

    I am sure that one of the advisors will pick this up.
    I hope that you can get the help you need to sort this out
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 2,679Member Pioneering
    Hi treemanhart, 

    CockneyRebel's advice so far has been spot on. The tribunal has decided that you had "good cause" not to have attended your assessment. The tribunal does not have the power at that stage to consider how many points you should or shouldn't get to determine your PIP entitlement, because you haven't had an assessment. 
    Now, the DWP have to send your claim to an assessment provider (if they think you need one which in almost all cases they do), you'll be invited to an assessment and providing you attend this one you'll get a decision on your entitlement.
    Winning this appeal means that your claim will be paid from when your DLA ended rather than you having to make a new claim and potentially losing all that backdated entitlement.
    You won't get any payments at the moment if I have understood your situation correctly, the tribunal was only to decide if you had good enough reasons not to attend. I know this isn't the answer you probably wanted and you're looking at another few months before you get your entitlement decision. Good luck!

    Lee
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    hi CR and Benefits training Co

    thanks agin for yur advise, i think yur right, and i need to wait for DWP about assessment.

    however just for clairty, i do not have MH issues. my confirmed diagnoeses are Spercific learning difficulites (with hearing loss and vision dysfunction) , ASD and cross-dominance. 

    some major issues that have arisen, are that the DWP, MY LOCAL Authroity and tribunal have all tried to place me in the MH area, and the DWP went further, they claimed i was a PVP (Potentically violent person) and shared this with police and council (maybe others) and instructed armed police to attend the jobsentre when i attended. They then retracted the claim when i got soliciotrs and took them to court. that was in 2010, but during the PIP Transfer process, they informed a benefits and money advice centre, who were helping me, that they would not conduct a home visit becasue of the risk to their contractor atos.

    now the tribunal who held a secret PIP Appeal hearing who excluded me from attending, the judge in that appeal had declared without evidcne or qualification that i was mentally ill, she then sought a Psychiatrist to sit on the panel and they reached their judgment as explained.

    while i will wait for a new assessment and i accept your advice is right, there remains some outstanding issues that i would really like some advice on. 
    1. there is a risk now that the DWP will treat me as a mentally ill claimaint, and may again suject me to increased risk of danger, when i am told that it boarders in illegality to have a judge reach a conclusion diagnoses before any hearing took place, and then it is a breach of the Mental Health Act to have a Rtd and not registered to practice psychiartirst to conclude (without ever meeting me) i may have a mental illness.

    if anyone from this comunity could help me out here, would be truly gratful
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,250Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I think that you need advice from a trained advisor. I am not saying that we won't help in any way we can but I think your case is beyond what a forum can give.
    Please don't think I am fobbing you off, I really do hope you can sortit ouy

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 2,679Member Pioneering
    Hi treemanhart,

    I'm sorry, but CR is right. We are benefits advisors, and I'm not sure I can comment usefully on what has happened. If the DWP/assessment provider see you as a risk, then that only breaches your rights if you have lost out - and in this case, I'm not sure that you have.

    To explain it another way - sometimes it can be an error of law to go ahead with a hearing in someone's absence if they haven't been given a full chance of choosing to attend. Now it does sound as if this happened BUT the decision was in your favour. That is, they decided you had a good reason for not attending the assessment, and your claim is still alive.

    What happens next is tricky I can see, but you should get your assessment in some way, carried out in a way that is accessible to you. If that doesn't happen, then you could have claims under the Equality Act. 

    Regarding the MH diagnoses/statements, I'm sorry but I do not know. We are not mental health lawyers, and that isn't something within our expertise. What I can tell you is that from what you say, it sounds as though your PIP claim is continuing. PIP is only very rarely paid without an assessment, so that is the next stage. 

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    thnks for that BT Co, ok, i've got it!, 'CR is right' i think i accepted that in my last email?

    ive set out the facts, thats all i can do, i was hoping that more responses may have come on this discussion :(.  i have asked one of the MH Adversr on this community to get back to me, still waiting.

    what i rasied in my last message, was about lawful proceedure, not about whether i could get PIP without assessment, so maybe what ive said is being misunderstood? All as i am saying now, is if only if someone has a qualified answer, then please repsond.

    Q: regardless of winning my appeal, the tribunal set up an informal mental health review and then excluded me from attending, and then reached a judgement (allowing my appeal) but framing that judgment in terms of me being mentally ill. Does this not sound to anybody in this community as 'wrong'? or possible a severe breach of my rights as well as placing me at risk?

    that is the queastion i am asking
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 2,679Member Pioneering

    Hi @treemanhart

    If your question above is whether the Tribunal have followed the correct procedure in order to decide your case - from the scanty facts we have - I'm going to put my neck on the line and say that to me it sounds like they probably have. In fact it sounds like they have really gone quite far to ensure that your case is decided fairly.

    Put yourself in the shoes of the Tribunals Service for a moment - they encounter a wide variety of appellants, some of whom have mental health conditions which are not diagnosed. It is not the Tribunal's job to make diagnoses, but they are within their rights to have medically qualified members who make informed opinions about the appellant, in order to properly decide their case.

    I can't quite figure out from the above if that is what has happened in your case, whether some Order or Statement of Reasons including their opinions about your mental health has been produced  - or whether this has just been inferred by you from the conversations you have had with them.

    But as Will said above, if assumptions have been made, or incorrect findings of fact, then that would simply be a matter for appeal - however in your case your appeal was successful so this is not necessary.

    Hope this helps.

    Mary

    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    thnks for that Mary,

    i am not sure i accept yur advice that the tribunal have gone out of their way to act fairley, im this matter.

    unfortunately all as i can place on this forum are 'scanty' details abut my case, but they are concise and factual.

    perhaps you are confusing acting fairley with upholding the appeal? i dont see that lawful proceedure is conected with the facts. merrits and evidcne of the case per-say. 

    not only have i put myself in the shoes of tribunal, as stated i have a friend who's a GP who supported me during the PIP Appeal until the serect hearing was concevned, and i also had some support from my landlord who is a very experienced health professional. As yu are aware the tribunal proceedure is goverend by the 2008 rules. appointment of Medical NLMs is strict criterion and all medical NLMs must be registered to practice with the GMC, even if they are Rtd, this as explained by the GMC is to ensure that the tribunal has legal imdemnity. (i.e. the medcial panelist cannot gve professional medcial opinion without registration to practice). both my lanlord and my friend the GP has confirmed this.

    the psychiartrist appointed by the tribunal is NOT regisitered to practice as confiremd by the GMC.

    one of the scanty facts i put in my prevoius details was the fact that the judge herself well before thet secret hearing took place reached a conculsuion in her directions that i was mentally -ill, to which my GP Friend during the directions hearings confirmed to her that i was not mentally -ill. the point being she reached a unqualified and unsubstanciated medical opinion before the hearing. Now if you want to call that acting fairley, then i would be very reluctant to consider any further advice from you or Benefits company again. That GP confirmed during case conference that a judge cannot walk into the hearing room holding a confirmed medcial opinion on her own assessment.

    like i said, i am not sure why no one else is even considering posting on this disccsuion, its almost as if no one else wants to engauge in this disscussion, or maybe another reason?.

    to answer yur query about what was in the SOR, it claimed that it was a 'Best Interest' decesion taken by the tribunal to hold the hearing in secret. Now both the GP freind, and health professional concur, that 'best interest decesions' can only be lawful if they are complaint with the legislation and Codes of practice around the MCA2005, MHA1983/2007 and Adult safegaurding and that the medcial authority is registered to practice.

    these are some further scanty facts to help you, but if you are not alarmed by the president this case has set then i would be alarmed and just becasue i won that appeal, does not remove or dimish unlawful and should be used as a vheilhcle for allowing malpractice to thrive.

    hope that makes my postion crystal clear, but thanks again for your input


  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,250Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2017
    thnks for that Mary,

    i am not sure i accept yur advice that the tribunal have gone out of their way to act fairley, im this matter.

    unfortunately all as i can place on this forum are 'scanty' details abut my case, but they are concise and factual.

    perhaps you are confusing acting fairley with upholding the appeal? i dont see that lawful proceedure is conected with the facts. merrits and evidcne of the case per-say. 

    not only have i put myself in the shoes of tribunal, as stated i have a friend who's a GP who supported me during the PIP Appeal until the serect hearing was concevned, and i also had some support from my landlord who is a very experienced health professional. As yu are aware the tribunal proceedure is goverend by the 2008 rules. appointment of Medical NLMs is strict criterion and all medical NLMs must be registered to practice with the GMC, even if they are Rtd, this as explained by the GMC is to ensure that the tribunal has legal imdemnity. (i.e. the medcial panelist cannot gve professional medcial opinion without registration to practice). both my lanlord and my friend the GP has confirmed this.

    the psychiartrist appointed by the tribunal is NOT regisitered to practice as confiremd by the GMC.

    one of the scanty facts i put in my prevoius details was the fact that the judge herself well before thet secret hearing took place reached a conculsuion in her directions that i was mentally -ill, to which my GP Friend during the directions hearings confirmed to her that i was not mentally -ill. the point being she reached a unqualified and unsubstanciated medical opinion before the hearing. Now if you want to call that acting fairley, then i would be very reluctant to consider any further advice from you or Benefits company again. That GP confirmed during case conference that a judge cannot walk into the hearing room holding a confirmed medcial opinion on her own assessment.

    like i said, i am not sure why no one else is even considering posting on this disccsuion, its almost as if no one else wants to engauge in this disscussion, or maybe another reason?.

    to answer yur query about what was in the SOR, it claimed that it was a 'Best Interest' decesion taken by the tribunal to hold the hearing in secret. Now both the GP freind, and health professional concur, that 'best interest decesions' can only be lawful if they are complaint with the legislation and Codes of practice around the MCA2005, MHA1983/2007 and Adult safegaurding and that the medcial authority is registered to practice.

    these are some further scanty facts to help you, but if you are not alarmed by the president this case has set then i would be alarmed and just becasue i won that appeal, does not remove or dimish unlawful and should be used as a vheilhcle for allowing malpractice to thrive.

    hope that makes my postion crystal clear, but thanks again for your input


    I don't think there is a reluctance to engage in this discussion. I think  your situation is beyond the experiance of most people in this community.

    We are here to help and support in anyway we can but having no experiance to share in what is, as you have agreed,  a complex situation there is little anyone can say.
    Again I would urge you to seek trained advice but we are here if you need to talk or need other support that we can offer.

    CR 
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    can Rebeeca (scope community MH Adviser ) answer my points?
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener
    i might add, that there appears on many other posts to be plenty of outside people engauning in dissucssion, but not here?

    with respect only advisers (CR and Benefits Co) aoppear to be the only others wishing to engauge, and i dont think its all down to complex issues.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,250Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I don't know how often other people come onto the forum. Many people that do come are looking for help with their own problems. I am able to lurk here a lot of the time due to my own situation and try to help as best I can.
     
    Please don't think that people don't want to engage with you, I think it is a matter that the people that can help or engage just haven't picked up on your thread.
    I cant offer any more advice than I have, but I am happy to talk if that helps.

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • SheriSheri Posts: 10Member Listener
    Hi
    cannot say I have any experience on this at all but as far as i can see specialist legal help has been suggested - have you tried fightback4justice on facebook - they are legal volunteers?  Good luck
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,316Member Pioneering
    @treemanhart  Like CR I am usually around to help where I can but I have no expertize to offer you any advice. However I have been following your story with interest as I have an adopted  son who HAS been violent in the past and only has a diagnosis of LD because he won't accept he has any mental health problems or engage with Doctors etc. I was his appointee in 2011 and as such was able to provide evidence, even photos of things he had done and managed to get him onto PIP at Tribunal. He is also in the support group for ESA. If he was reviewed now he could well end up in your position if I submitted the same evidence again. What CR said about the forum members not being able to help is correct but we can empathize and support you as we too have experienced the feelings of injustice you are currently going through. The PIP process is very poor for people with MH issues. That includes myself by the way. I partly agree with you about the advice given here which I don't always agree with but I know that it's given with the best intentions. As far as I've been told they only come onto the forum for an hour or so and not that often. I think you will need to look elsewhere for the support you need. Try to put the negative feelings to one side and focus on how and where things have gone wrong and what you need to do to put it right. You would be much better able to deal and hopefully solve the problem  with a clear head. I wish you good luck and hope you can sort this mess out... 
  • treemanharttreemanhart Posts: 14Member Listener

    thanks for others making contrbutaion,


    for sheri, can fightbackfor justice be contqacted by email or telephone, as I don't do facebook?


    For RC, thanks for the offer for chat, I thnil I have exhausted this issie now, and even though ive asked one the MH adviser of the commnuinty to comment, that dosent seem to be acted upon?


    for wildfire, am glad you followed the thread, and you will realsise that I have posted my confirmed diagnoses upon the thread, and non of them relate to a mental health condition, or learning disability. I have been in ligation for 6 years solid, so in that time I have had to do research and fight my own appeals. some support has come from experts, such as the GP ive mentioned who is a regional expert in autism, and wrote the Autsim  E-Modules for the Royal College of General Practictioners. he confirmed for the tribunal that Aspergers syndrome has been removed from the DSM-5 and is no-longer considered to be a mental illness. He confirmed that the WHO ICD-10 (which is what the NHS base their criterion of illness) does not identy aspergers as a mental illness, but a developmental disorder. so agin I say for the finmal time on this post I have no recorded diagnose of mental illness, and I would be very grateful if people ceased to presume (like the judge) that I am, and I take offense at being inferred by those who are unqualified to make an assumption such as that.


    addtinaly learning difficulites and not learning disability, that criterion for both are very different, and I am not recorded on jmy medcial patient record as a violent person, but rather this society and state is very keen to label people like me as such.


    this is my last post on this discussion, as its clear that I cannot get the answers I need (no offence meant) and it appears that the community adviser wont respmod?


    thank you all for your input, and I may meet again on diferent topic.

  • RebeccaMHadvisorRebeccaMHadvisor Posts: 99Member Courageous
    Hi @treemanhart

    I am sorry that I haven't responded, I had made the, clearly incorrect, assumption that you were going to contact the Scope helpline.

    I have read through the thread but I need to be careful about the advice I give as I have some knowledge of PIP but the Benefits Training co are the experts and I am not really sure what I can add to the response they have given.

    If there is something in particular around Mental Health that I can assist with please let me know and I will support you through the forum the best I can.

    Rebecca
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