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Has DLA Turned Disabled People Greedy?

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  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,616Member Disability Gamechanger
    I don't think that there is any case for suggesting that any disabled people might be 'greedy' by asking for more benefit until such time as they have lost an FTT and, if there was an error of law, not until they have lost an UTT, i.e. not until they have gone through, not just the flawed assessment system, but also the full judiciary appeal process.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,316Member Pioneering
    @Matilda Good point but there are people who don't feel able to go through the complete process but that doesn't mean anyone should insinuate they were obviously not entitled to a higher award and therefore just being greedy. No-one has the right to accuse or judge another human being without proof that they are motivated purely by the want of more money. We can only judge ourselves in the way @DannyMoore suggests. So an interesting discussion topic and may make some people stop and think what their motive might be for wanting a higher rate than they've been offered. Let's not forget those who know their assessment was unfair and their award not what they would have been offered had the assessor not been willing to lie yet still accept it and are grateful for it. Every case is different but I prefer to accept that those motivated by pure greed are very much in the minority.  
  • GeoarkGeoark Posts: 1,186Community champion Pioneering
    LOL greed or need, one of my favourite subjects.

    I think @wildlife sums up the real issue, it is not about greed but a corrupt system which very few people who knows how it works has any faith in.

    Rather than go into one over this greed vs need I would suggest looking at some good research. https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/minimum-income-standard-britain-what-people-think

    It is based on what the public is the minimum standard of living acceptable in the UK in 2017, along with a minimum standard of earnings needed to meet this. There is a description of how this is reached.

    One group sadly missed out, though there is a general consensus they have higher costs are those with disabilities.

    So I will ask you the same question I would ask any conservative, Particularly for those who will never work, or may never work, because of their disabilities, how far below standard of living we as a society believe to be the minimum is acceptable?

    Of course if you can come up with research supporting your point of view I would be happy to look at it and respond.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • Neil2017Neil2017 Posts: 158Member Courageous
    Hi @DannyMoore
    i agree with the comments made above that it is not greed in claiming specific rates of PIP, it is the complexity of the system in order to get the correct rates in the first place either transferring from DLA to PIP or from being a new claimant.
    PIP is not really intended to benefit for general day to day living costs like food and energy bills. It is supposed to be for additional mobility costs or care costs although many may say that other incomes like ESA or state pension may not stretch far enough.
    I agree with your point that some people may be able to make cash go a bit further, but it depends a lot on their circumstances and severity or kind of disabilities as well as level of knowledge. For example shopping around on a lot of stuff could save money like changing energy supplier if possible. Changing bank account if it is convenient like the branch you wish to change to is accessible and you meet the terms of tge new account. Some banks are now paying around 100 pounds to do this. 
    I also believe inflation or the increase on prices that we as disabled people pay overall is much higher than the government states. (Currently 3.1%) And given the government sneakily released the fact that it is going to freeze welfare payments at or around 1% for the next few years and it does NOT specify exactly which I believe tough times could be ahead for many of us if this goes through. 
    In addition it is becoming a post code lottery more and more since the devolution into 3 country assemblies and Westminster in where you can get totally subsidised NHS prescriptions and the like.

  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,616Member Disability Gamechanger
    What I mean is, if someone has gone through appeal as far as they can and have lost, then maybe only maybe they are motivated by money.  But I don't think anyone can be suspected  as motivated by money until that stage.
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  • RosiesmumRosiesmum Posts: 76Member Connected

    Hi @DannyMoore it's a difficult subject to address and I get exactly what you mean it's hard when it's written to get the point across as intended isn't it?

    For us personally,no it's absolutely NOT about the money,it never was and never will be.We are fortunate in that my husband has always worked so we can cover our expenses,unlike many.

    I have a son with Autism and I suppose, I've become  like him in a lot of ways after having to live such a regimented life as it where for nearly twenty years..He is an absolute star and his simple way of looking at the world is very refreshing but he has a real issue when people do not follow rules!!

    My issue is fairness,the fact procedures in their own rules are not being followed,which then has a knock on effect.

    This in turn can lead to a detrimental effect on someones health . If I use my son's mobility issues for example he has always been provided with transportation or he doesn't travel.Not because he's lazy because it's unsafe and he physically can't do it,let alone safely etc.

    I totally agree with you since disability has been 'monetised' it has become more of an issue all round.It is hard though because of the many types of disabilities no one size approach fits all hence the need for the system so disabled users can use the benefit for services they need.

    My cousin as I said in another thread was provided with a Reliant Robin type car and eventually supported housing.I think back then approx. 40 years ago  any help was given in services and goods rather than cash support.



  • RosiesmumRosiesmum Posts: 76Member Connected

    P.S   I forgot to add the most important bit that I would rather have two healthy son's,but despite their differences they are my world and I would not change them :)

    We also did not claim benefits for many years until someone saw me strolling to school with my son's spare back brace and we got chatting I had never even heard of DLA and didn't even think they would get it.


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  • RosiesmumRosiesmum Posts: 76Member Connected


    Hi @DannyMoore it's lovely to meet you and I for one think the way you and my son look at the world is amazing.

    He has taught me so much and  allows me so often, to celebrate the smallest joys in life that other people may not even notice!

    There are many people working very hard to try and help get the system right.I know I won't be giving up anytime soon :)

    Fairness is very important to me and my son and one of the questions I actually put to the DWP ministers,regarding support for people who do not have family etc.

    It will take time to get the system right and the more we try to help hopefully the better it will get.

    It's nice to have a moan once in a while but I believe in being constructive and trying to help put things right as well (my son's influence again I get told off if I rant for too long lol)


  • Neil2017Neil2017 Posts: 158Member Courageous
    @DannyMoore
    i would say to some extent I am like you and hence query or believe I am at least mildly autistic. I would like tge world to be much more black and white or structured in some ways. But then I see very little is purely absolute. A lot is rather fluid or anything in between black and white!

    i think this is one resin the assessments for PIP in particular are complex or not straight forward. Trying to fit people into tick boxes and sometimes simplistic or general physical assessments.

    plus the cynical reason is that the current government want to cut the cost of welfare overall and probably pushing people through mandatory reconsiderations and tribunals unnecessarily at times for such benefits as PIP and ESA
  • MarkmywordsMarkmywords Posts: 398Member Pioneering
    The most one can get on PIP alone is less than half the gross minimum wage for an over 25 year old.

    The government wants the PIP bill reduced but they cannot do it openly without losing votes. So they do it dishonestly with the help of two agent companies to provide some distance.

    Given the dishonesty, how can a claimant ever know they are getting the proper award for their circumstances?

    I fail to see how a maximum of £7337.20 a year, less the costs of having major disabilities, can provide any form of opulence.

    How meagre a lifestyle do we have to have before it is considered frugal enough?
    The recent roll-out of Universal Credit caused a spike in suicides. Were they greedy and crying wolf ?
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  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 609Member Pioneering
    I understand where Danny is coming from. There have been posts (not just on here, in general) where people have complained about getting than DLA and they're clearing trying too hard to get the higher rate. One example I've seen a few times has been - under DLA mobility, you could get the higher rate if you could walk less than 50 metres (I think?) and now it's 20. Some people have now asked if they'd also qualify because they'd need help getting their chair out of their car or something similar.

    I did originally lose everything under PIP (I was on mid care and low mobility) and did get it looked at again. But it's clear I do meet the criteria. Going from £250-odd to £125 a week was a huge drop and did mean I couldn't afford some of the disability things I needed. Nor could I really afford to pay my parents to come and help me do things or take me appointments.

    But for some of us, it's not just about the money side of things - PIP care, as someone under 35 allows me to claim the one bedroom rate within housing benefit. As an adult with amongst other things, Autism and various sensory issues, I can't live with other people.
  • GeoarkGeoark Posts: 1,186Community champion Pioneering
    Hi @DannyMoore I knew you were not trying to be offensive, hence my approach to my post. The example you gave with your friend's father is a simple attempt at fraud.

    @Nystagmite it doesn't help that many people don't appreciate that the two are very different or what the criteria is. A lot of the opening posts members list what is wrong with them when they complain they get turned down without a word on how it affects them individually, or what support they need/have.


    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • RosiesmumRosiesmum Posts: 76Member Connected

    Hi @DannyMoore oh yes I so know what you mean.Going back many years now ,my son is 19,the first thing we learned as parents was to think outside the box as it were..He's our youngest (we have three sons) and everything we ever learnt as parents with the other two literally went straight out the window and we had to start from scratch!

    Fortunately the internet had also been born by then so it has been a godsend in a lot of ways to help us learn how to support him best. I find it quite a refreshing outlook to be honest,in such a difficult  world we sometimes we live in.

    @Nystagmite yes I think my son was more worried about when he attends appointments and not having his blue badge as parking is such a nightmare in London.You are so right it is more for him at least the other bits that come with it rather than financial.

    .I'm hoping my son's will both be able to eventually live independently with support, so it's nice talking to young people who are already able to manage this.


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  • RosiesmumRosiesmum Posts: 76Member Connected

    Thanks @DannyMoore I'll take a look at that later.Sounds like just the sort of thing I'm looking for!

     I was fortunate to stumble upon Jacqui Jackson and her family in a documentary regarding diet and autism.Her son Luke is an amazing young man. It gave me hope for my son when we were really struggling.

    I needed info mainly on the sensory side as he had and still has a lot of issues with this side of things,over time we came to understand more why he did what he did (he was non verbal til  around 5).

    We dabbled in the early years with many things,not to change my son,but to try to make his life easier as we got to know his needs.I don't think we'll ever STOP learning and he keeps us on our toes but  it is also fascinating to watch him grow up and achieve things.


    @Geoark yes I agree the criteria is so different as it concentrates on function mostly and I think it takes a little getting used to filling out the forms differently to the old style DLA.


    I think my main issue with 'the system' is the lack of consistency being applied. Again this comes back to quality of assessments,are we all expecting too much of the assessors do you think???

    They can't after all be experts on everything I understand that,but are we ever going to get a fair system? One that always works?




  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,616Member Disability Gamechanger
    We are only going to get assessments that are more accurate when these are undertaken by doctors, as was the case for DLA.
  • GeoarkGeoark Posts: 1,186Community champion Pioneering
    @Rosiesmum I don't think the problem is lack of consistency, rather the record tends to show there is a lot of consitency in the errors being produced. I believe there is a very good reason why they use health professionals rather than doctors registered to work in this country, and that is because had they produced reports like we have seen they would have struck off.

    The DWP are certainly aware of the issue, but rather than deal with it they introduced mandatory reconsiderations to generally rubberstamp the decision with a clear aim of increasing the number of people who drop their claim before the appeal is heard. They have been very successful with this aim.

    I doubt that we will ever have a system that gets it right all the time, and I seriously doubt that we will ever get a fair system while the Conservatives are in government. Even their much vaunted social mobility commission stepped down en mass because they had no faith that this government was capable of providing a fair society, this included a seniour conservative MP.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    There was a comment back in this somewhere that basically implied that it is not our place to judge others. One thing I have learnt very well is that people judge others ALL the time. We take what we see and assess people accordingly.

    Using a car park, especially in town. shows people using disability spaces unnecessarily a lot. It also shows some to be taking advantage. I have expressed this opinion before so wont belabour the point but there will ALWAYS be people who take advantage of any system unfairly and, with such a preponderance of invisible illnesses now, it has become easier for them. Fibro, for example, is something people can learn to simulate but what they cannot do is learn the way it affects movement even on the good days.

    I spoke to a lady recently who claimed to have it but it was obvious that, even if she did suffer the condition, it was at such a low level that it never impeded her abilities. It was more a claim to be more like me during our conversation which, due to understanding and knowledge, failed miserably. Yes, I am sure the lady has some problems but she has never really suffered in the way she claimed.

    Invisible disabilities are not as invisible as most think. Those that suffer them can spot the difference with a little patience because even on the good days there is an expectation of it returning and a protection of the movements that aid in dealing with it.

    Even here, though more so in the outside world, I see people claiming how their pain is at such extreme levels yet, when pressed for details, show to those that really do suffer extreme levels that their idea of what constitutes extreme falls far short of a really extreme situation. However, pain is subjective and it can feel impossible to deal with only for it to rise and then the only wish is for it to go back to the previous state as that was not so bad after all.

    So, why the monologue?

    Need and greed cannot be judged purely in monetary terms. What is important to rate it against is the quality of life at those different levels. Then there are short term mitigating circumstances which, as a general rule, are punished by the system out of proportion to their benefit. I won't attempt here to quote or speak for others, I will simply use myself as an example.

    Outwardly I appear, as I have said before, fairly healthy. I also appear to be fairly well off and can afford things I would not normally be in a position to do so. Does this mean I do not deserve help from the system? Every time I pull into a disabled space and exit the car I see the looks I get. I can see them wondering why I deserve the benefit of a car and a badge. This lasts only until I open the back door and commence winching the scooter out, setting it up, getting on It awkwardly and then finally going into the shop. Hang on! I heard that very clearly even in text, lol! What about my claims of panic attacks, agoraphobia and claims of fear of strangers and strange places? When I use the scooter I feel somehow protected. I spend my time concentrating on manoeuvring it and avoiding running into people and hurting them. In short, I don't have time to become scared. I remain terrified of entering more than the 3 or 4 places without it (excluding my home and those of my relatives), which I have spent a long time training myself to be controlled when I enter. Places I need to go to just live.

    Do I need high rate benefits? Do I have a car unfairly when I can afford to go places like having a few days away and stay in a hotel or to ask an escort to visit me (not cheap) or in numerous other ways that I show I have reasonable funds? The money I have right now is what is left of the estate my mother left me. I use it to try and have ALL the things I have not had over the last decade because I could not afford them. It will not last that long but for now things are better. Perhaps some might think I should therefore not have the help at the moment. My answer to that is why not? It is not my own management of money that has led to this, it was the loss of my mother at a bad time that now lets me make up for it to myself and, in amongst all the advantages, I have also been replacing and gaining some additional aids in allowing me to function better. Ofc no one knows about those because I see little reason to tell them and, even if I did, most would not understand why I need such things anyway.

    We judge people all the time. It is human nature. We can deny it or rationalise it but it is always there. Rather than discuss whether someone is being greedy by wishing for an extra few thousand pounds we should discuss whether the loss of that would mean them unable to ever leave their home or would it mean they can never be clean. Without the car I could never leave the house. For now I could cope with the loss in other ways but, once the money I have is gone, then I would be housebound for whatever time I have left. Could I get it back? It seems doubtful under the present system without going through a process I doubt I could cope with and even then the hardship whilst waiting would probably be beyond my limits.

    Always be careful when throwing labels around. It is impossible to know someone enough, especially disabled people, to be certain about them. Just look for the signs that those who are really undeserving constantly give out and then turn your opinion on them. Most really disabled people deserve the help they get and the rates money is paid at is really only sufficient for the more minor levels of disability. The costs of having severe disability are never appropriately covered.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 609Member Pioneering
    This is nothing new:

    I used to know someone whose daughter (she was a child; so unlike an adult, was not expected to do self care under DLA at her age) was awarded lower care because she had eczema. Yes, having had the condition myself, I am aware that it's not pleasant. She wasn't too happy that she only got lower care and thought she really should have got mid care. She did fight for this, as well as higher mobility - even though there are videos of her daughter dancing.

    When the mobility rules changed and you could claim higher mobility on the basis that you (a few people anyway) were blind, everyone claiming on the basis of sight impairment was contacted. I remember saying it doesn't apply to me and my consultant was contacted, he confirmed this and told me they'd talked to him. The same lady mentioned above, has the same amount of vision as I do and was trying to appeal to get the higher rate - even though she quite clearly doesn't meet it.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,616Member Disability Gamechanger
    And doctors would cost a lot more than 'Health Care Professionals'.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,249Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Nobody wants to be disabled. Nobody wants to have debilitating conditions. But for many of us it does form a great part of our lives, we learn to cope as best we can and often hide a lot.
    PIP is flawed in only looking at functionality and not the cause. We all learn to function, we have to, we have no choice. When we attend assessments we still have to function so the assessor will see us function and report accordingly. If we didn't have our coping mechanisms in place a trained monkey would be able to see the problems we have.
    In many ways it is easier to quote our condtions and medical history rather than admit to the things that we have  trouble with. We cannot change what has been diagnosed so we lead with the medical facts. We can, in some cases overcome and find ways around our functionality. It is much harder to admit that we cannot do things than accept a medical condition. For example, I can accept as a fact that I have chronic COPD, I have to use oxygen that is a fact. Is it a fact that I cannot walk 20m ? I used to be a middle distance runner and I still am in my head, so no I cannot accept that most of the time I cannot walk to the end of my driveway.
    I used to be a mechanic and car sprayer, it was my passion. Can I accept that I will never do it again. No, I cannot accept that. There are many practical and physical things I  used to do and trying to do them has put me in hospital three times this year. I still don't accept that I can't do them, so will probably end up in hospital again.
    Until PIP is change to take into account the cause as well as the functional impact we have to learn to drop our coping strategy when being assessed or the assessor will come to the wrong conclusion in many cases. We all do judge on what we see and assessors are no different, if they don't see how your condition affects you how can they reach a fair and just assessment ?

    I am not defending the the system or the dishonest assessors, but in part we are to blame for learning how to get on with the life we have been dealt, we have no option

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • Neil2017Neil2017 Posts: 158Member Courageous
    Hi @DannyMoore
    Apologies if this is going off tge original post.
    i would just like to say thank you for sharing the information on the Living with Asperger’s on the ASD. I watched it and found the vide very informative and useful.  
    Can relate to some of tge stuff. And like tge bit about nicknaming your strengths as super human powers!
    all the best
    Neil
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    I know a married couple who have been married for 20 years DWP believed their lie that they live together but don't have a sexual relationship in their home because of his mental health problems ( no mental health problems) just convinced his doctor he hears voices . They claimed income support each then went to esa....so 5 years ago he decided to claim dla was awarded high care low mobility, he has just gone from dla to PIP recieved his award letter got enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility...the next day he ordered his brand new 17 plate car with a 1000 pound deposit ..he got that then put his 3 year old lovely car up for sale...he was diagnosed with mild  copd for smoking 50 roll ups a day and was given 2 inhalers he can run faster than me never mind walk and I'm 2o years younger.But that wasn't enough his wife made a claim for pip she has just been awarded the enhanced daily living and  low mobility.. again nothing wrong with wife playing on artheritis ,their daughter who is currently on dla waiting to go for pip recieved high care low mobility her and her partner go abroad twice a year and she has just passed her driving test obviosly expecting a brand new car when goes to pip....all 3 of them lay on the couch everyday all day long that's when he isn't taking all family shopping ECT in his top of range car...Now if that isn't GREED il never know .
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,249Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    No, that is not greed it is criminal
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    @CockneyRebel Of course it is CRIMINAL, GREED & WANTING and theres plenty of them it makes me sick.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Budgie2 said:
    @CockneyRebel Of course it is CRIMINAL, GREED & WANTING and theres plenty of them it makes me sick.
    And they didn't provide any medical evidence of his mild copd or the made up mental health but was still awarded it .
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,249Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    How many of us have seen or know of this kind of abuse and criminality and done nothing about it ? How many of the scammers shown on television have been brought to task ?
    Or is this another form of greed ? Do we look at them and think they don't deserve benefits and if they were stopped there would be more for me.
    People tell lies. Some people lie to get benefits. Some people tell lies about their benefits. Some people lie to themselves about their disabilities.
    Do your friends and family really know all about your disability or do you hide it ?
    How can you make a judgement call without knowing all the facts ?
    If you do know for certain what are you prepared to do about it ?
    How many people would report another person for claiming benefit that they suspected didn't deserve it ?

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    I don't speak to these people I'm a friend of their friend so I get told what they are up to ...im sure nothing would get done because they know how to play...their GP is convinced so what is the point of saying anything .
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 609Member Pioneering

    Do your friends and family really know all about your disability or do you hide it ?

    CR
    Exactly. I've hid some of the problems I have. Or rather, only said something when it's become relevant. I don't feel the need to announce to every single person that I've got issues with whatever. 
  • Neil2017Neil2017 Posts: 158Member Courageous
    Hi all,
    Think this discussion or thread will run and run. Unfortunately there is always somebody who seems to abuse or get more than their ‘fair’ share. Conversely there is always someone who falls through the cracks and does not get anything for whatever reason.
  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    There are and will always be people who cheat the system. DLA was very good at finding them out and the rate of cheating was assessed at around 1%. PIP is such a mess in itself that the rate is vastly higher and will only be sorted out once they admit how bad it is and effectively sort the problems out. In the meantime it costs nothing to report people who are obviously cheating. I am not certain but suspect that there is an anonymous line for reporting such things. I know there is for Council based benefits and this anonymity is sometimes abused but we do not live in a perfect world. Whilst we turn a blind eye so the situation will continue.

    It is ofc a personal matter between the person and their conscience.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 609Member Pioneering
    There is indeed an anonymous line for reporting people you suspect of cheating the system. You don't even need to give that much information. I was reported because a) I don't live where I claim to live (I honestly forgot to change my details on the electoral roll when I moved out) and b) I'm not as disabled as I claim to be. Whatever the heck that means. Oh yes, it's probably because I walk... (I have never claimed I'm unable to walk)
  • feirfeir Posts: 356Member Pioneering
    2 people i know who claim the top rate did each spend thousands on a new fitted kitchen, not even to make their life easier or anything but just because they wanted a new kitchen, there was nothing wrong with their 'old' ones either .i guess when you're doing that and not spending it on actual needs you have then it does make them look like they are on too much money and wasting it.

    then i know someone who needed a different kitchen fitting so she could retain more independence while disabled and had to fight to get one as she hadn't the money to pay for it herself, she wasn't on top rate.

    so, on the other hand, many people are living hand to mouth or struggling because of poverty not allowing them to have a fulfilling life that i really don't blame people for claiming money they don't really need coz without the extra money it's likely you'd be in poverty and unable to meet even your basic needs.

    flat rates don't really work in an inequitable society or when individuals have differing needs and expenses. but then again society pretty much goes against that kind of thinking too, your manager will get paid more than you for working the same hours. so yeah i guess this will continue, nobody has any idea what they're doing really they justify this and that but i'm of the thought that if you have to justify something then it's probably the wrong thing to do for that reason alone. don't get why we don't do things that make sense instead.
  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    I think there is a misconception amongst healthy people that the disabled are well off and get tons of money and help. If they then develop a slight or mild disability they expect to be treated according to what they believe. They also don't understand the difference between the various levels of disabilities but then that applies to some disabled people too. It is difficult to appreciate the difference between a disability that makes it difficult and painful to walk and another that makes it completely impossible in that they both take away a simple function that people expect to have, that of walking.

    People will always have expectations that are usually unrealistic whether that be appropriate physical support, appropriate monetary support or a cure. What is most galling though is when you see people getting help and money for lesser disabilities than you yourself suffer. It may be that they do deserve it but they may not and that is when they should be reported because there is little enough to go round for the people that really need it.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • GeoarkGeoark Posts: 1,186Community champion Pioneering
    PIP like DLA is not means tested, you can be on JSA and qualify for PIP or be a director of a successful company and qualify for PIP. Comparing how the two spend their income would be like comparing apples and pears.

    So if this is not acceptable then we are saying that it should be means tested, which generally means household income rather than individual. So where do we set the limit before pulling the rug from under their feet? Or in other words at what level are we happy for disabled people to reach before we say enough? Keeping in mind that these limits are usually based on household income, if the partner is successful does the individual disabled person then lose their rights as an individual?

    The other question which seems to being asked is what rights do we have on deciding how we spend the money we have if we are in receipt of any benefits? We all make choices on what is important to us as individuals or as a family, what might be important to one will not necessarily be important to another.

    We do seem to be doing the governments job for them. Remove the no means test to include means testing.

    Scrutinise spending to see if based on want or need and remove if based on want.

    So then we come to an important question, if you are disabled and work what is the maximum quality of life and social mobility you are entitled to if you depend in any way on benefits?

    There is a huge amount of inequality, to some extent the corrupt system in place plays it role. People have posted here that they get zero points and say they are disgusted and want nothing more to do with it. Others will just accept it. Many will go to MR and the original decision will be rubber stamped and they will drop out.

    We know that appeal success rates are high, around 65%. But this is for both written and oral hearings. Just as we know oral hearings are far more successful then written, so those who are unable to attend again are far more likely to fail. A simple truth is those least able are more likely to fail.

    If we were to remove PIP from those we deem as not being 'worthy' of this benefit would this provide more money for those that need it? No. It would reduce what the government pays in benefits and add to their rhetoric on how they are improving the lives of disabled people. Must be true look at how much we are not spending now. Or as Iain Duncon Smith once put it 'I believe it to be true and you cannot prove me wrong'.

    Not counting those who are defrauding the system, the problem is not disabled people, it is the system used to check the entitlement and the corruption this government is allowing at the expense of disabled people.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 609Member Pioneering
    edited January 2018
    I'm not sure I get the issue with people spending PIP / DLA on whatever. After all, we don't whinge at people spending ESA / JSA on whatever, do we?

    And how do you decide whether it's disability related or not? I, for example, can't drive for medical reasons (although, it was decided at my PIP assessment I could - my parents were told when I was 5 it would never happen. It was then confirmed again when I was 18) and if I go more than 1 hour away from home for a gig or whatever, as well as paying for a train, I've got to pay for a hotel for the night. If I wasn't disabled, I'd be driving and be able to drive home late at night. There's no way I'm getting a train (assuming they're even running) late at night.

    Thankfully, you're not asked what you spend your PIP on. I, for example, don't really have any set costs as such. I'll have some weeks where my mobility costs can be as little as £3 and other weeks it's nearer £50. Ditto care - sometimes, it might be nothing and other weeks, it might be nearer £100.
  • feirfeir Posts: 356Member Pioneering
    edited January 2018
    would it be too simple to say that everyone should have access to a decent of quality of life and if money is needed to attain that then those with a need should be given some from those who are not needy?

    i know it's too simple overall but the priniciple is not. it's why we have an NHS and paltry benefits system in the first place.
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  • GeoarkGeoark Posts: 1,186Community champion Pioneering
    Hi @feir what you are talking about is redistribution of wealth. In effect that is what the tax and welfare system sets out to do. Unfortunately that does not tend to favour the poorest in our country.

    There is growing support for another way of tackling this around the world, through the use of Basic Income.

    Basic income has the following five characeristics:

    1. Periodic: it is paid at regular intervals (for example every month), not as a one-off grant.
    2. Cash payment: it is paid in an appropriate medium of exchange, allowing those who receive it to decide what they spend it on. It is not, therefore, paid either in kind (such as food or services) or in vouchers dedicated to a specific use.
    3. Individual: it is paid on an individual basis—and not, for instance, to households.
    4. Universal: it is paid to all, without means test.
    5. Unconditional: it is paid without a requirement to work or to demonstrate willingness-to-work.
    While support and interest are growing there is also a lot of political resistance.
     
    More information can be found at http://basicincome.org/basic-income/

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    Disability benefit is not designed to provide people with an income and that's why it isn't means tested. It is a supplementary payment to help towards the additional costs of living with a disability. Trying to turn it into something else will result in it being removed from the system altogether and inflict further suffering on an already pressured minority. It should not be expected to cover ALL additional costs but the additional costs for differing levels of disability.

    The benefits for living on are such things as JSA, ESA, UC, etc. These should, in theory, provide the standard of living appropriate to wherever you live and, as part of that, leaving an amount over for a few luxuries (going out, take-away's, TV's, etc.). If there is a problem with the system then it is those types of benefits that need to be addressed.

    The subject of greed is not really a part of disability benefits (or shouldn't be) except that when people cannot have everything they want and they are the type of person to do it, then they will use fraudulent claims to be better off.

    However, people today are definitely greedy. They want everything NOW and don't like it when they don't or can't get it. The greed is a product of advertising, the people next door and other factors. I always find it upsetting when I see programs on TV professing to show how tough life is when, in the background, the kids are playing on the latest console in front of a massive TV with designer clothes and trainers and all with the latest mobiles. And yet the person front and centre is professing an inability to buy enough food. People want too much, have too much and get too much of the things they don't have to have instead of living within the budget enforced upon them.

    I see things only getting worse especially when some put forward complicated suggestions of ways to address things which, in the long run, will only mean more hardship for those forced to live at the beck and call of the government and local councils.

    If the government really wants to help (which they don't) they would start to curb the constant brain washing enacted by the media and instead spread the belief that we cannot have everything, especially when we are only supported by the system and, usually, unable to contribute. Ofc all they actually want to do is give less to a minority that needs it in the hope that the minority cannot fight back successfully.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • feirfeir Posts: 356Member Pioneering
    thanks @Geoark i have heard of universal income. i think it's a good idea myself. by unconditionally giving people enough for the basics to survive it tells them they deserve their basic needs met no matter what, which being poor tells them the opposite of that. it also removes the stress of being forced to look for non-existent (or unsuitable) employment too :this can also have the effect of employers not being messed around also by desperate but uninterested potential employees.




  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    @feir , from what I have seen and heard there have been a lot of problems with UC. People being worse off, poorly implemented, lack of training for staff and information for people, etc. There have been cases of people getting into debt through not understanding it and even some evictions because of it. Like everything else the government is doing it is aimed at saving money but is poorly thought out and not supported correctly. They NEVER learn.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
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  • feirfeir Posts: 356Member Pioneering
    Topkitten said:
    @feir , from what I have seen and heard there have been a lot of problems with UC. People being worse off, poorly implemented, lack of training for staff and information for people, etc. There have been cases of people getting into debt through not understanding it and even some evictions because of it. Like everything else the government is doing it is aimed at saving money but is poorly thought out and not supported correctly. They NEVER learn.

    TK
    hi, one of my sons was on UC and had been for over a year since it came out in this area, he was on JSA before that and before then he was doing training schemes from the age of 13 for nothing. UC is enough to live on basically but not much more i think personally, if you need money for an emergency your stuffed too.

    main problem with him was that they kept sanctioning him and all you're entitled to now is loans -not hardship payments. his mental health went right down because of the stress, so much so that he ended up seeing a team and has been diagnosed with something (i forget what but it's some type of bipolar) and his team intervened in his benefit claiming process to tell them they had to stop sanctioning him and put him on ESA instead. i'm not sure if the sanctions are the main cause of his illness but they definitely made it worse.

    i agree it's not supported properly. and i think there's a lack of communication between everyone involved now too.like my son has been sanctioned for things he has done because the benefits office thought he hadn't done them (and they never asked him if they had so whoever was supposed to tell them had not told them).

    i don't get why they won't learn from their mistakes? if they were clever enough to put themselves into positions of power then they should be clever enough to sort out the messes they make.
  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    @feir they aren't interested in whether mistakes are made or sorting them out. They are ONLY interested in reducing the costs. They don't care because they are above retribution and sanction and think that they can do as they like and not be punished for any problems or hardship they cause.

    As for the idea of Karma.... it's complete rubbish. No one who has ever made my life more difficult has suffered in any way. In fact, their colleague's have always rallied round and protected them from the mistakes they made. As I don't believe in any sort of life after death the idea of retribution at that point is meaningless to me and always will be.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
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  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    @DannyMoore most of the people who have hurt me the most I am still in contact with. I know a  lot of what has happened to them and consequently know that they have suffered much less than what they did to me.

    As for your "don't do's" list. I do or have done all of them many a time. I hide nothing. I am completely open and honest. I never keep secrets except those of others. I am not the only person like this.

    Tbh if everybody behaved as you suggest it would be one more nail in the coffin of living and society. I choose to believe people are better than that, even if they are not sometimes. I am sorry you suffered but, in my eyes, had you been open about it and told people maybe it would have stopped. In an honest world people cannot be dishonest without being seen and punished (if punishment is warranted). I taught all my children to stand up to bullies and fight back and to tell people it was happening. They all did and suffered very little because of it.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
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  • janice_in_wonderlandjanice_in_wonderland Posts: 259Member Pioneering
    'Greed or need' 'corrupt'

    Its the unpredictable sporadic accumulation of invisible illnesses that seem to be dismissed as if looking and sounding ok is proof 

    Medical evidence or not there are people who are genuinely aren't strong enough to fight their battle

    Many unable to go attend appointments to enable them to get the evidence they need to be taken seriously 
    Neglected, possibly suffering silent slow manslaughter while they're judged 
    Innocent people are paying the price for the 'need or greed' process 
  • janice_in_wonderlandjanice_in_wonderland Posts: 259Member Pioneering
    Hurt people hurt people...catalysts are necessary 
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 609Member Pioneering
    'Greed or need' 'corrupt'

    Its the unpredictable sporadic accumulation of invisible illnesses that seem to be dismissed as if looking and sounding ok is proof 

    I was pretty much told this at my assessment. I would love to know how one looks a) partially sighted (my eyes look "normal" - the damage is behind my eyes) and b) Autistic. 
  • janice_in_wonderlandjanice_in_wonderland Posts: 259Member Pioneering
    Nothing surprises me re vulnerable disability claimants anymore

    No idea how society functions these days - desensitised people or they never had any empathy in the first place @Nystagmite 

    Keep on keeping on 
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  • izaiza Posts: 435Member Pioneering
    So it is time to start remind the society to leave in unity back again. 
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  • izaiza Posts: 435Member Pioneering
    edited January 2018
    Hi @DannyMoore, you need to see Christ does exist and appear in other people  hearts. Look for good people who helps others the Christ is already there  with them. You do not need any specific appearance of new person send here in physical state. The Christ is in hearts of those who believe in GOD or  not. They been gifted to be here to help others. Believe in it. 
    Believe in Angels too. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Peace be with you& all @iza
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    Peace be with you and all @DannyMoore
  • TopkittenTopkitten Posts: 1,003Member Pioneering
    It appears to me that things will never improve. As society "matures" so it gets worse. I see this continuing until the world becomes equal to the pictures and portrayals of hell. When everyone is treated badly they will finally understand that their bad treatment of us was a sign of their own future. Fortunately I will not be around when this comes to pass but I do fear for my children and their children as it may well happen in their lifetimes.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    @DannyMoore Hi I myself disagree I believe the only ones who will get to heaven will be the pure and innocent that been babies who haven't sinned...i believe that those who have sinned have to earn their place in heaven when passing ...jesus said to the other male today you will be with me in paradise..He didn't say if you have been baptised you will be with me in paradise.i think you don't need to be baptised or go to church ..I think you just need to believe like I do and I pray every single night and I tell God the holy spirit and jesus that I love them.Everybodys beliefs differ and this ones mine.
  • janice_in_wonderlandjanice_in_wonderland Posts: 259Member Pioneering
    A Minister said to me 'we are all sinners' 

    I think a regular reality check needs to be applied - beliefs or not...get real
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    @janice_in_wonderland hi of course we are all sinners anyone would be silly not to know that ..even the child that blamed the other child for taking the cheese from the fridge has sinned...the only human being who has not sinned is babies and those born of brain damage because they haven't and CARNT LIE and are not GREEDY and DON'T HURT PEOPLE physically and Mentally and they don't STEAL they WILL meet Jesus and live in paradise for sure.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 689 Listener
    edited January 2018
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  • janice_in_wonderlandjanice_in_wonderland Posts: 259Member Pioneering
    I have no time for engaging with people who falsely accuse me of abuse or making fun of faith 

    also im not in the habit of tolerating CAPITAL LETTERS which are regarded as intensely emotionally fuelled 

    My brother is a Minister 

    I would like you to honour my request to now leave me alone 

    we are all here for a reason 


  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,316Member Pioneering
    edited January 2018
    @DannyMoore This forum is not the place for preaching to people and I am becoming concerned that there may be vulnerable members who will be reading this and believing what you are saying. Some of the content of your posts is very negative and worded to scare people into thinking that if they don't believe as you do bad things will happen to them. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and these should be respected with NO attempt to change them. If I was admin on here I would now close this discussion so that we can get back to helping disabled people with any problems they may have in a kind and constructive manner. 
This discussion has been closed.