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PIP - zero points - how many of us?

WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
I've been hearing an awful lot of people say that they got 0 points for PIP for their initial decision. I wonder how many of us there are? I also wonder whether this is a new thing that the DWP is doing? Thinking of an FOI request...
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Replies

  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 3,874Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Hi Waylay

    The problem with forums like this is we only hear the bad side. There are many people that have no problem and never post online

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    @CockneyRebel Oh yes. very true. I'm more wondering whether there's been a rise in people who get 0 points after their assessment, instead of 2 or 7 or whatever.
  • joyclynjoyclyn Posts: 55Member Whisperer
    I have 2 points  !!!!!
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 3,874Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    for the most part, if you have a problem then you need to challenge the decision DO NOT let them intimidate you butmbe prepared.
    The majority of failed claims are a result of not knowing what is required

    have a look at the B&W self test for in insite

    http://www.mybenefitsandwork.co.uk/pip/indexxx.php

    CR

    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • hopehope Posts: 8Member Listener
    I'm so mentally in state  for over yr complex PTSD adult ADHD many more mental and phyicaly in a grief stricken stare of confusion been diagnosed with early cirrhosis then liver dr says I ain't it's to much had to see GP I have got it and bowel blockages mental health stopped seeing me as in to much of illness and confusion I have a meningomia my whole body mind is to ill on top of fighting for me and daughter adult we both have co morbiditits left to see to each other we are in hell I now have to sort pip out change ove from DLA got 10 days to get it in with o help I have not a hope in hell of complete it as memory trauma after trama I can't fill it in to mentally ill why do I feel I'm on trial in court I'm fighting to be able after years of never seeing anyone just hospital which  is useless I'm in astate and I getting no help
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 3,874Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Hi hope

    You can ring and ask for an extentsion
    Please try and get help from CAB or similar

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    @CockneyRebel Oh, I did it right. The HP was either incompetent, or malicious, or both. Multiple serious errors (I don't see a psychiatrist, I don't have any input from NHS mental health community teams, I've been discharged from the Pain Clinic - all wrong).
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 610Member Chatterbox
    I got 4 on care and 0 on mobility. I then got standard care and somehow full mobility.
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    It makes you wonder the different awards people are reporting then after a MR they get the right award. What has or did go wrong at the acessment??
  • ataloss2018ataloss2018 Posts: 33Member Talkative
    edited March 2
    My wife went from enhanced daily living and standard mobility to zero points after the assessment, MR was rejected and she is now waiting on an tribunal appeal date.
  • M4NDYS31M4NDYS31 Posts: 3Member Listener
    It's happening a lot in the North West and it not right when they were at higher rate for mobility and care
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    It sounds like people are moving from DLA to PIP and assume they will have the identical awards. And maybe not realising that the two benefits use a different criteria to award points hence the decrepacies  that then go to MR and appeals. 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    PIP was introduced to reduce the disability benefits bill so PIP is harder to qualify for than DLA - and that's when assessors don't tell lies to mark people down!
  • M4NDYS31M4NDYS31 Posts: 3Member Listener
    I know of 6 People in my group have gone throw from DLA to the PIP assessment and told that they have to hand their car back to the dealer and making them isolated from the community 
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 610Member Chatterbox
    The criteria for DLA mobility and PIP mobility is different though.

    In my case, it was pretty obvious that I did (or do) meet the criteria for PIP on both parts. But the report was seriously flawed and I can't believe no-one picked this up.

    I do understand posts like "I got 6 points, got it looked at again and got 9 points" because 2 different assessors will come up with 2 different results. But to go from 0 to 12 is ridiculous. Only piece of evidence was a diary which backed up what I wrote on my form and what I said at the assessment.
  • M4NDYS31M4NDYS31 Posts: 3Member Listener
    your right it is ridiculous and they know the system is all flawed
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    PIP is interested in how you function day to day with the set of descriptors. They only take ONE condition into account because I was asked which did I wish to base my answers on.
    The fact both effect my ability to function is irrelevant. The fact both effect me in ways that are not included on the list is irrelevant. DLA took both conditions on board with their forms and awarded care. In fact one section that was in the DLA forms has been removed off the PIP. So DLA did use descriptors didn't it?
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    @whistles That's not right! It should be how you function, not limited to how you function because of 1 particular condition! Appeal!
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 2,211Member, Community advisor Chatterbox
    Hi whistles,

    It doesn't matter how many health problems you have, you score points on the descriptors that apply to you. You could score on one descriptor for one illness, and on a different descriptor for the same or a different illness. 
    The criteria for PIP is a lot easier to understand and to work with. There wasn't any descriptors for DLA, the criteria was much more vague. 

    Lee
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Will Hadwen
    Lee Kempson
    Mary Shone
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland

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  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    With DLA the DWP would routinely ask the GP for a report.  Now with PIP the DWP never contact GPs.  And with DLA the DWP would send their own appointed doctor to contact an examination.  Whereas now there is no medical examination by a doctor but an assessment by an 'HCP' the highest qualified of whom are nurses and often are only paramedics.

    In other words, under DLA there was thorough medical evidence whereas now with PIP there are flawed reports by assessors many of whom are incompetent at best and dishonest at worst.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    Hi @Victoriad! Yeah, GPs are so wildly different in how much they know about MH, and in how they treat patients. I'm very lucky to have a GP who specialises in MH, and who is extremely helpful. He readily admits that he's a bit out of his depth with my diagnosis of Borderline PD, but read up on it and is happy to call the specialist service if he has questions. (He agrees with my therapist that it's more likely that I have C-PTSD, though.)

    He treats me as an adult who has had mental health problems since I was a teenager, and consults me on what I think about various treatments, etc. I adore him.

    He also knows a fair amount about chronic pain.
  • Salamka101Salamka101 Posts: 40Member Talkative
    @Matilda . Just to clarify PiP had two objectives. One was to reduce the number of long-term DLA awards, the other was give 'Parity of esteem' between physical  and mental disability. Sounded reasonable but in practice it meant savagely reduce those with physical disabilities to the same level as those with mental issues.
    It's worth noting that just last week Esther McVay was accused of misleading Parliament in her recent statement on PiP by a Tory Peer That Peer was Lord Sterling, co-founder of Motability in 1977. Also worth remembering that McVey was sacked from her role as Minister for the disabled in 2013 for a similar failure.
    Lord Sterling pointed out that 75000 disabled drivers out of 180,000 have had to return their vehicles so far, 5,000 in the last year alone, and the switchpver still has 2 years to run.
    When looking at the way PiP is NOT working one has to remember that in any organisation the tone is always set by the person at the head. If that person exhibits an unfortunate antipathy to the disabled and is inclined to be less than truthful, that will permeate down through the entire organisation. 

    Salamka101
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    @Salamka101 One person, or an entire government.....
  • lillybellelillybelle Posts: 452Member Chatterbox
    I must admit, I had my DLA form filled in by a disability centre about 15 years ago and got middle rate care and low mobility.
    Never once did they ask for any evidence. They may have contacted Gp originally but nothing since. No medical or assessments at all
    condition not changed
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    Yeah,@lillybelle , I was on DLA for several years, until got switched to PIP. Sigh.
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  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 610Member Chatterbox
    I did send off evidence for DLA just in case and I did the same with PIP. GP was contacted with DLA snd wasn't with PIP. It also seemed that my GP and the evidence was believed more with DLA too.

    I didn't really see my GP when I was DLA and see them quite a bit more now for check ups. 
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    Well done Victoriad, having a good GP is high on my list of priorities.  Unless my memory serves me wrong I found many things between PIP and DLA the same. Obviously the 20m  and 200m are vastly difference. With PIP I found you have to describe how your illness impacts on your life, you have to dot the I and cross the t.  Practically the first thing my assessor  said to me was thank you for filling my form in so fully.  Still waiting for my results, so it will be interesting to see if it helped me!  Mind you she did ask me if I had help.
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • lillybellelillybelle Posts: 452Member Chatterbox
    I was asked the same question.
    who filled the form out?
    a disability centre in our local area did it and I told them so.
    the person who did fill it in also deals with tribunerals and goes to court .
    he said to me, when they read this form in they won’t just push it to one side as they do with a lot.
    Everything he wrote was straight to the point.
    eg- can’t do this efficiently for safety reasons etc.
    no waffling or details as he said they aren’t interested
    just sent with a Gp letter.
    awaiting result now.
    But will take it further if not happy with outcome
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    I am impressed and happy that people who,where on DLA and now claiming PIP have admitted that claiming DLA was easier to claim and no proper checks where made. We all know PIP has a lot of hoops to jump through to get an award and it is only right. That's why the questions asked are relevant to your daily needs and having an acessment to justify your needs makes the system fairer as long as the claimant and acessor are both honest in their reporting a fair award should and in most case happens. It's sad when people on DLA have to hand their cars back because they don't meet the criteria in the PIP system it proves that so many where claiming and getting a free car for years and now have to prove their need.
  • jabeentahirajabeentahira Posts: 2Member Listener
     Im 46 currently allowed to bid in Band 2 (Emergency medical needs ) due to severe disability and depression (noise level from flat above) for an adapted property ground floor only . But not allowed to bid for bungalow or any property above 50. As a result there is no place where I can bid every week. 
    Bungalow is an ideal option for me due to disability and reduce noise level but sadly Im not allowed to bid for it
    Can any one advise me what are my rights as a disable ? what Law says about it ?
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    @CockneyRebel with respect to you as I know how much help you give to others on this forum but there's no point in saying we never hear about the claims that go smoothly and correctly as your's did. @Waylay started this discussion because of knowing that there are reports of people getting 0 points through the lack of knowledge or sheer dishonesty of the assessment services. It's not just the odd one it's hundreds if not thousands of cases that aren't being handled properly. To say PIP is better than DLA is based only on the system working properly and there is a huge amount of evidence that it is not. An FOI request would not give figures for 0 scores that should have been awards which is the subject to hand. Should we just ignore all the corruption because the correctly awarded claimants stay silent? No of course we shouldn't.   
  • zacthezebrazacthezebra Posts: 8Member Whisperer
    I was successful on my third attempt to claim DLA and was awarded mid rate care high rate mobility indefinite award.
    I applied for PIP 2016 and was awarded 16 points mobility and 20 points care awarded for 5 years. Since the rules on mental health for mobility awards have changed I should get 24 points mobility.

    Unfortunately we all know PIP is a lottery I was lucky I had an honest HCP but he did get some things wrong but overall the assessment was fairly accurate it lasted nearly fours hours. I had also applied for ESA and the DWP used my PIP assessment for my ESA I was placed in the support group.

    My first attempt to claim DLA I did not even have an assessment I was turned down straight away. My second attempt at claiming I had an assessment with a doctor with such poor English I could not understand most of what he said.He lied to such an extent I thought the report was on someone else.
    The third attempt I had an ex GP he was really understanding and the report was very accurate hence my success.
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 610Member Chatterbox
    wilko said:
    I am impressed and happy that people who,where on DLA and now claiming PIP have admitted that claiming DLA was easier to claim and no proper checks where made. We all know PIP has a lot of hoops to jump through to get an award and it is only right. That's why the questions asked are relevant to your daily needs and having an acessment to justify your needs makes the system fairer as long as the claimant and acessor are both honest in their reporting a fair award should and in most case happens. It's sad when people on DLA have to hand their cars back because they don't meet the criteria in the PIP system it proves that so many where claiming and getting a free car for years and now have to prove their need.
    But proper checks were made. Why do you think peoples GPs were written to?

    The assessments under PIP make no sense - I have a condition which is well known for fluctuating. How can you make a decision on how it really affects me based on a hour's assessment? You can't.

    I found many of the questions weren't relevant to my daily needs. I wasn't asked at all about socializing for example; but for whatever reason, it was assumed I could. Ditto, cooking a meal - even though it was written on my form I can't even make a cup of tea unaided.

    I was honest at my assessment. The assessor wasn't. And that's where the problem lies. As well as the lack of knowledge - I was asked a) if I could drive and do I have a piece of paper to prove it. Because I didn't, it was assumed I could, and b) I was asked what one of my conditions was. How can you make a decision how I'm affected if you don't know what my condition is?
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    Obviously the acessor was not doing their acessment to the high standard as required. When filling in the form there is plenty of space to write addional information about your problems with daily living even adding extra sheets if needed. As for the acessment it's a two way thing you ,we have to be proactive in giving our answers and not a simple yes or no answers being asked by the acessor. If you feel the acessor does not understand your condition and situation then enlighten them, Inform them. Don't sit there silently.
  • NystagmiteNystagmite Posts: 610Member Chatterbox
    She had to ask what one of my conditions was! So if you have to ask, how can you make a decision on how it affects me? It was also pretty much decided I was lying about the side effects of the medication I'm on. These are documented by my GP and were documented by a previous GP too.

    I only gave a simple no when I had no difficulties doing things.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    PIP assessors do sometimes contact your consultants/GP/etc., but not regularly.

    From a recent disabilitynewsservice article:

    DWP documents drawn up in May 2012...show the department expected its contractors would need to request further evidence (also known as further medical evidence) in about half of all cases (50 per cent).

    But at one stage, in June and July 2016, Capita was seeking further information from GPs, consultants or social workers in fewer than one in every 50 PIP claims (less than two per cent of cases).

    ...the total number of separate requests for further evidence by Capita had plunged from more than 94,000 in 2015, to about 48,000 in 2016, and then to less than 21,000 in the whole of 2017.

    The figures also show a dramatic, unexplained slump in the proportion of cases in which Capita sought further information on PIP claims, from as high as 69 per cent of cases in January 2016, to just 1.8 per cent five months later.


    For the first seven months of the year, Atos was seeking further evidence in just five or six per cent of PIP cases, although that rose to 13 per cent in one of its two contract areas and 11 per cent in the other in December 2016, still far below the 50 per cent figure suggested by DWP in 2012.

    https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/the-pip-files-dwp-documents-show-absolutely-shocking-failure-on-further-evidence/
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    edited March 3
    I wouldn't say DLA was easier to claim than PIP to claim in my case.

    In both cases I had to fill in a long form.  In both cases I had to have an assessment.  DLA, a doctor came to my house.  PIP, I went to an assessment centre to be assessed by an Atos paramedic.  

    DLA, the examining doctor wrote a very detailed, accurate report.  DWP also received a report from my GP, which was not due to pester-power.  I saw my GP fairly infrequently and their report was based on my hospital consultant's letters.

    PIP, the Atos paramedic wrote an inaccurate report, full of half truths and one blatant lie.

    This is where getting PIP became more difficult than DLA.  I was awarded DLA top rates both components without need to appeal.  PIP, I was awarded standard both components and had to go to a tribunal to be awarded enhanced.

    In other words, more people have to appeal under PIP than under DLA.  DWP are putting more unfair obstacles in the way to deter people from claiming PIP.






  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    wilko said:
    Obviously the acessor was not doing their acessment to the high standard as required. When filling in the form there is plenty of space to write addional information about your problems with daily living even adding extra sheets if needed. As for the acessment it's a two way thing you ,we have to be proactive in giving our answers and not a simple yes or no answers being asked by the acessor. If you feel the acessor does not understand your condition and situation then enlighten them, Inform them. Don't sit there silently.
    Two problems:
    1. Many, many assessors aren't doing the assessments to the "high standard as required". I've had 7 assessments now. 6 were crap. 6 tribunals. 6 wins. I can't tell you how bad this has been for my health.
    2. You're assuming that claimants are *able* be proactive. At this point I'm so anxious about the bloody assessments that I have to take enough diazepam to drug an elephant in order to attend. I'm incapable of being proactive in that state. Luckily, my friend who comes with me is bolshy as Hell.


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  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    Hi whistles,

    It doesn't matter how many health problems you have, you score points on the descriptors that apply to you. You could score on one descriptor for one illness, and on a different descriptor for the same or a different illness. 
    The criteria for PIP is a lot easier to understand and to work with. There wasn't any descriptors for DLA, the criteria was much more vague. 

    Lee
    So why was i asked which condition was worse imo?
    The sad truth is the person sat in front of any claimant isn't going to know about every condition. 

    Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread. When i get my assessment back i can start a thread. 

    Just finding this forum so supportive and helpful and i am beginning to feel less shy about joining in.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    Hi whistles, glad your settling in to the group, we have views opinions and make comments on each other's posts as long as the they are helpful and informative to others  giving support and encouragement then more the better, take care.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    @whistles

    Probably you were asked which condition was worse because most assessors don't have much of clue about what they are supposed to be doing; certainly the paramedics don't know anything about medical conditions.  My assessor asked about the symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and I could have been quoting from the phone book for all she appeared to comprehend.  She also pronounced one of my meds incorrectly.  Don't think she knew anything about common treatments for RA.
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    Just wondering why the assessor was so keen to know who filled in my forms.  Does it mean, if someone else did so, that is cheating.  If I filled out my forms, I will be adversely judged for doing so. Both ways I lose!
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    No amount of knowledge on how to win your award will be of any use whatsoever if your assessor is having a "Target figure" day and doesn't care how dishonest they have to be to get the end of day figures to show their superiors. @wilko I agree with @Matilda about DLA it wasn't easy at all. It wasn't just the assessor that was listened to as DWP do now but GP's were contacted and evidence was used properly. It was accepted I needed help with preparing food, but 7 years on I don't need help. I actually need more help now. You have seen my posts and trust me I can explain things in every detail but that won't work with an assessor who isn't listening. 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    The assessors do ask some questions that seem irrelevant.  My assessor asked who I call on my mobile phone.  I think sometimes the assessors don't know what else to ask and ask whatever comes into their head at the time to make up the number of questions, as it were!
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    @charlene, maybe the person who filled in the form for you or anybody else in fact may word it in a way as to make it more informative and factual than you yourself are presenting the answers to the acessor, hence the question. If somebody fills the form on your behalf there is a place on the form to declare that detail the acessor just had to look on the relevant screen to see this.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 3,874Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    I think sometimes a well completed form that is comprehensive and easy to understand can help an HCP make the right decision. By showing that you understand the system leaves little room for them to make errors.

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    @charlene

    It doesn't matter who filled in the form, it only matters who signed it - and that was you.
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    Hi Matilda, they asked about who you call on your mobile to see if you socialize with others.  I told them the senior physic told me to carry a mobile, as I was falling, and could ring for help if I couldn't get up. Also because I have a bad memory Drs, hospital, audiology text me to remind me I have an appointment.
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    @wildlife, don't take this wrong, you said you needed help with preparing good now 7 yrs on you didn't at that time did you inform DWP of your improvements, if no why not, I expect most claimants worry that if they did another acessment would be forth coming and a loss of benefits. So mum's the word but when things turn for the worst we are quick to notify DWP for a possible increase in benefits thank you. I waited over 3 months before informing DWP that my mobility had got worst and filled in new form had f2f and got the same living and enhanced mobility, I had all ready bought my own scooters before being awarded PIP so I didn't updaeDWP on my mobility issues for gain but it does state in your award letter if any changes you have to let them know which I did.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    edited March 3
    I think this question of who filled in the form gives the assessor information as to whether you're capable of writing, thinking, holding a pen etc. It's nothing to do with the information actually written about you. It's one of the trick questions that gives them reasons why you can do other things. For example they may say as you filled in your own claim form you have no cognitive impairment. The fact you may have forgotten you put the chip pan on and nearly burned the house down then becomes irrelevant information when doing your report.    
  • Salamka101Salamka101 Posts: 40Member Talkative
    [email protected] 
    I'm sure there are some caring Tories but they tend not to rise in the Party. I remember more than 40 years ago when I was active in the campaign to replace the old invalid trikes with the original Mobility Allowance. The trikes were an abomination, single seater 3 wheel underpowered and dangerous. Each cost more to make than an average saloon car of the time. When asked why the Government would not replace them with proper cars the answer we got was 'because too many people would apply' .Cost before lives has always been the Tory way but at least there was a time when they gave honest answers. however unfair.

    Salamka101
     
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    Thanks, @charlene.

    I told assessor that I called family, friends and taxi companies on my mobile.  However, as I had claimed for no mental health issues, whether I socialised or not wasn't all that relevant.  I suppose assessor might have wanted to ascertain if I had some kind of support network.  But she assumed that I use my mobile for most calls which I don't - I still make and receive most of my calls on my landline, except of course if I need to phone for a taxi when not at home.  So who I call on my mobile isn't all that important as I don't use it much for calls.  Assessors make incorrect assumptions, in addition to all their other faults!
  • Salamka101Salamka101 Posts: 40Member Talkative
    @wilko ;
    Got to take issue with you over PiP being fairer than DLA and your comment about 'free' cars. The old Mobility Allowance was introduced to replace the old Invalid trike. Motability was introduced to help those who wanted to to exchange that allowance for the use of a vehicle mostly to get to and from work or to find work. In my case my mobility vehicle kept me in work for 40 years. Instead of living a life on benefits I found work, paid IncomeTax and NI and contributed to Society even starting a family.
    As for fairness - If I could walk 19 metres (19 steps) I could have kept my Car, one step more I lose it even though that 20 metres is not sufficient to get to either end of the street. Where is the fairness in  that?

    Salamka101

  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    @,salamka101, sorry I forgot about the be three wheeled mobility invalid trike. Vaguely remember seeing those while I was going to school such a long time ago thank you for the reminder. That's a good point you raise about keeping you in work and paying your taxes ect, maybe the government should put a plan forward where a person would loose their car can keep it because they are working and paying taxes ect and if they loose it they would not and be claiming benefits instead. But how many like yourself are or can or want to work? They would sooner live on benefits and have a free car I don't know. The same goes for the free bus passes a lot of users I see have a car and use free bus ride save on parking and seen while on holiday they drive to the park and ride and use the bus pass to get into the city ect on one bus dubble decker less than a dozen people where fare payers
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    edited March 3
    @wilko May I ask you to be more careful what you accuse people of? Or,at least, make sure you've got your facts straight. You misunderstood or misread what I said about preparing food. I have not improved so have done nothing wrong. OK I should have said it was my assessor and the DWP decision maker who decided I didn't need help at the time of my assessment last year. If you check back as I have done in the next sentence I said "I need more help now." My assessor falsified a whole A4 sheet of exercise results and ignored a physio report with correct results for upper body problems. Having done this she was then able to write repeatedly on my report that my upper body strength and mobility was normal. WRONG !!! There are many people who've been treated in this way and that is what this discussion is about not for one forum member to accuse another of dishonesty.  
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    So much for taking note of good and bad  days. My form took me 3 to 4 weeks to complete, filled it out on only good days.
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    Hello Widelife, I saw the questioning concerning my form and who wrote it from a diferent perspective.  If someone else had filled it in who had experience and knowledge  of filling in such forms maybe they could slant the answers to benefit me. I told the assessor I have brain fog and short term memory problems, but obviously these are not 24 hours a day. However short term memory problems have in the past led me to go out and come back to a smoke filled house on 2 ocassions. On both ocassions I had to ring the fire brigade.
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    @charlene I was asked what jobs I did when I left school. I'm 67. I remembered some but had to be prompted by MOH about a period in the WRAF when I met him and got married. Lol. Anyhow apart from the funny side I was  getting noticeably distressed as I didn't understand what this had to do with what I need help with now. My assessor decided that as I could remember most of my jobs I had no memory problems and because one of the jobs in my 20's involved handling money I had no problems dealing with money now, or last year when I had my assessment. It's a well known fact that short term memory goes first. I can't remember what I did 2 minutes ago but can remember years ago. 

  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    Everyone is different.
    I am entitled to the free bus pass but would rather pay my way. Actually truth is, I'm trying to blend in with society. 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    charlene said:
    So much for taking note of good and bad  days. My form took me 3 to 4 weeks to complete, filled it out on only good days.
    I found fillng in the form so depressing it gave me bad days. It made my life look non existent.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    This is going to sound awful but a neighbour whilst talking asked me the names of my grandchildren and I couldn't answer, my mind went totally blank.  Took me about 2 weeks to remember.  Also one day looking through my diary, another thing I have to try to keep uptodate or things don't get done, like the other day forgot an appointment, only knew about it when the lady rang to ask if I was attending and because of the snow I said no.  But I digress, looking through my diary I noticed that a Sarah had an upcoming birthday.  I sat there and sat there thinking who is Sarah, I don't know a Sarah, later and I mean weeks later,  I suddenly thought you complete idiot of course you know a Sarah.  She was my sons partner and were together 14 years! 
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • Salamka101Salamka101 Posts: 40Member Talkative
    @wilko ;

    Sorry to have to labour the point but again you refer to a 'free' car. That is a popular misunderstanding that enables this Government to get away with PiP.
    Motability cars are NOT free, they are leased. You, me or any Tom, Dick or Harry could go out and lease a car for the same amount, or less than Motability charge.
    The confusion only arises because the Motability rates have always been geared to the amount of our disability allowance and is paid on our behalf by the DWP. If we don't choose to have the Car we get the allowance paid to us instead. So it might be convenient to opt for a Motability vehicle, if allowed, but it is by no means FREE.
    A major difference you might also consider is that Motability is a charity, the profit they make is used to help severely disabled people with their mobility issues. I would prefer that to the private sector profiting from a Lease.
    So please don't refer to 'free' cars again.

    Salamka101

  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    I gave up Christmas last year because i just can't process it. Things have got worse.
    The forms actually arrived over Christmas so this got included as it was happening at the time.
    Strangely enough I do have a carer, but this is only in relation to my mobility. Yes you can employ someone to take you shopping, but I'm not receiving the help I need when I get there to actually shop. 

    P.s how do you send people a message? I can only see wall comments. 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 3,874Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Hi whistles
    to send a message,
    Click on the second icon under your name on the top right
    this opens your inbox
    Next click on new message which will open a dialogue box
    Start typing the name of who you want to message and a list will appear
    select the person you want to message and type away

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    So what does it mean when a person's user name is in a purple box with a cross next to it CR? 
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    @wildlife, thank you for reprimanding me and giveing me, us a full account of your f2f, no wonder you are annoyed and upset. Your acessor if you could call her one was unbelievable you couldn't make it up, a complaint should have gone in to DWP and the acessment company, I bet you did, even because of the stress you did nothing it's a clear indication that some and a lot of acessors are not qualified to do the job of an acessor other than be a keyboard operator.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 3,874Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Sorry wildlife havent come across that, I don't get time to message.
    Maybe other can shed some light

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    wildlife said:
    @charlene I was asked what jobs I did when I left school. I'm 67. I remembered some but had to be prompted by MOH about a period in the WRAF when I met him and got married. Lol. Anyhow apart from the funny side I was  getting noticeably distressed as I didn't understand what this had to do with what I need help with now. My assessor decided that as I could remember most of my jobs I had no memory problems and because one of the jobs in my 20's involved handling money I had no problems dealing with money now, or last year when I had my assessment. It's a well known fact that short term memory goes first. I can't remember what I did 2 minutes ago but can remember years ago. 

    I got asked this as well. They asked where I went to school and if I had help.
    I guess they are checking your memory if you have said you suffer with loss.
    My short term is shot to pieces, but i do know where my school was.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    edited March 3
      @wilko Is that an apology? If so I accept and we'll forget it ever happened. Yes my assessor was appalling. She said I held a water bottle between my knees and peeled off the plastic label round the middle using my right and left hand. The poor lady was concentrating so much on convincing the Decision Maker i had no problem using both my hands, she completely forgot how you open a bottle of water. The bottle was actually opened in the waiting room and again during the assessment by my hubby who was with me all through the assessment. Surprise surprise he unscrewed the top. I do remember briefly holding the bottle between my knees to free both my hands to do the exercises, that must have given her the idea for this blatant lie. My full story is on this forum. Yes I complained and it was rejected by ATOS. It's now with ICE (Independent Complaints Examiner). It will be August this year from February last year before they get to investigate it due to a huge backlog of similar complaints. So anyone who thinks the cases of wrong awards due to assessors not doing their job properly are few and far between should think again.     
  • lillybellelillybelle Posts: 452Member Chatterbox
    I am another one who was asked what type of school I went to and to what level of qualifications.
    i have 0levels. I’m not stupid!
    just a poor memory.
    these assessments are rediculous 
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    @ wildlife, thank you for the accepting my apology,  forgiveness and reconciliation is good for the body and soul. We all read ,hear stories on this and other furums some are hard to believe because we are told them these things by friends who we know and trust? Only to find out days weeks later that they are lies half truths. 
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,124Member Chatterbox
    This is the extract from my report. Pretty much all the observations were untrue.  
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    My assessment report stated that I walked 16m to assessment room using a stick and with a normal gait.  I have a limp and creep along.  From 16m indoors assessor extrapolated that I could walk 20 - 50m outdoors using pavements and kerbs!  At tribunal they agreed I could walk 0-20m.

    Assessor wrote that she watched me take my bag off over my head, put it down on the floor and pick it up again later.  At no time, not even during the exercises, did I remove my bag.

    In addition, the report contained a number of half-truths.
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    edited March 3
    Wow. Thanks for sharing.

    Um. What's your general appearance got to do with it. Does it not occur to them that you might have assistance in selecting selecting clothes, someone might do your make up for you? 

    I didn't have a physical examination I had a memory test. 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    edited March 3
    Assessors will use any excuse to deny points.

    One point.  Not all claimants emphasise the aids they use.  Use of aids should get you some points, especially if you can't complete the activities reliably even using aids.


  • Governments_A_JokeGovernments_A_Joke Posts: 187Member Chatterbox
    I was successful on my third attempt to claim DLA and was awarded mid rate care high rate mobility indefinite award.
    I applied for PIP 2016 and was awarded 16 points mobility and 20 points care awarded for 5 years. Since the rules on mental health for mobility awards have changed I should get 24 points mobility.

    Unfortunately we all know PIP is a lottery I was lucky I had an honest HCP but he did get some things wrong but overall the assessment was fairly accurate it lasted nearly fours hours. I had also applied for ESA and the DWP used my PIP assessment for my ESA I was placed in the support group.

    My first attempt to claim DLA I did not even have an assessment I was turned down straight away. My second attempt at claiming I had an assessment with a doctor with such poor English I could not understand most of what he said.He lied to such an extent I thought the report was on someone else.
    The third attempt I had an ex GP he was really understanding and the report was very accurate hence my success.

    @zacthezebra Well done in getting a decent HCP, I did as well but mine diden't lie or bend the truth either and that was Capita.

    Im interested in the comment you've also made where your PIP was used to make a decision for your ESA SG? I wonder how that become to be.

    ....".............

    I believe as I also was on DLA indefinitely H Mobility L care?
    Then changed to PIP for me has proved better for me and covers my needs, in respects regarding my majority of days where as DLA H care was based on day and night care. So yes in my situation PIP is better.

    I also truly believe GP's carry less wheight under PIP as they don't really know the full extent of your functional ability where as psychiatrists, occupational therapists etc will.


    This Governments gone way to far. Now let's help Debbie Abraham's and help get this sorted and the Conservatives to stop this crap against the disabled. See more of her story's on her tweet page here https://mobile.twitter.com/Debbie_abrahams and let's get behind her and Support her in the fight for the rights of disabled. Together we must fight and we can conquer.
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    @Governments_A_Joke I was on indefinite Middle care and they have stopped it.
    Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head, the descriptors apply to daytime help.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • Governments_A_JokeGovernments_A_Joke Posts: 187Member Chatterbox
    whistles said:
    @Governments_A_Joke I was on indefinite Middle care and they have stopped it.
    Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head, the descriptors apply to daytime help.
    @whistles

    Interesting? Now I'm on PIP Enhanced for both On-Going, But remember PIP is purley functional. So any evidence you supply is based on your functional difficulty's.

    This Governments gone way to far. Now let's help Debbie Abraham's and help get this sorted and the Conservatives to stop this crap against the disabled. See more of her story's on her tweet page here https://mobile.twitter.com/Debbie_abrahams and let's get behind her and Support her in the fight for the rights of disabled. Together we must fight and we can conquer.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    PIP descriptors make no distinction between day and night living or mobility whereas DLA did.  To get highest DLA care you had to have night-time needs.
  • Vixen3869Vixen3869 Posts: 7Member Listener
    Most PIP applications are turned down, I read somewhere that they turn them down to save funds and most that apply and are turned down are so dis-heartend by the reply they Don't challenge the PIP so they did save money. 
  • charlenecharlene Posts: 550Member Chatterbox
    Haven't had  an answer yet to my pip assessment. After reading all these posts I am already preparing for an MR and Tribunal.
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • wilkowilko Posts: 496Member Chatterbox
    @charlene, why haven't you requested a copy of your acessment report take about 14 days to arrive. From reading your report you will and should be able to work out what your award may or should be, and if not what you expect or deserve you can scroll the report and use the information to prepare for a MR.
  • Governments_A_JokeGovernments_A_Joke Posts: 187Member Chatterbox
    charlene said:
    Haven't had  an answer yet to my pip assessment. After reading all these posts I am already preparing for an MR and Tribunal.

    @chasnbons I would advise you call the PIP helpline and ask for your assessment form, to note if you had an assessment at a centre or at home you need to ask for the report called PA4.

    If it was done on Paper Based (Not at a centre or Home) then ask for form PA3, you are entitled to this as it's your right, you will be able to see what has been said about you whether it be lies or the truth. The DWP will nearly always go with what is on those forms.

    Asking for these form will not be an issue to you or your outcome, also it will give you advance warning if you need to prepare for a MR/Appeal.

    Good luck.
    This Governments gone way to far. Now let's help Debbie Abraham's and help get this sorted and the Conservatives to stop this crap against the disabled. See more of her story's on her tweet page here https://mobile.twitter.com/Debbie_abrahams and let's get behind her and Support her in the fight for the rights of disabled. Together we must fight and we can conquer.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Brian Blessed
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,157Member Brian Blessed
    I found that my assessor wasn't interested in percentages.  I started to explain that I had 5 bad days a week on average and her eyes glazed over so then I just said 5 days a week and she seemed happy.

    Assessors do go quite a lot by what they see on the day but not exclusively.  If an assessor goes only by what they see on the day then the claimant will have many grounds for appeal.
  • zacthezebrazacthezebra Posts: 8Member Whisperer
    edited March 4


    @zacthezebra Well done in getting a decent HCP, I did as well but mine diden't lie or bend the truth either and that was Capita.

    Im interested in the comment you've also made where your PIP was used to make a decision for your ESA SG? I wonder how that become to be.

    ....".............

    I believe as I also was on DLA indefinitely H Mobility L care?
    Then changed to PIP for me has proved better for me and covers my needs, in respects regarding my majority of days where as DLA H care was based on day and night care. So yes in my situation PIP is better.

    I also truly believe GP's carry less wheight under PIP as they don't really know the full extent of your functional ability where as psychiatrists, occupational therapists etc will.


    Thanks glad you got a decent HCP there are some out there but unfortunately there are many very bad ones.

    I was moved from incapacity benefit to ESA. I completed the ESA 50 forms and sent them in and expected a f2f request. I cannot remember when but after my PIP assessment which was carried out at home I received a letter informing me I was in the support group.My PIP decision only took 4 weeks.
    I called the DWP and the lady told me they had used my PIP assessment and the 50 pages of supporting evidence for my ESA award. I never had a f2f ESA


  • Buster09Buster09 Posts: 3Member Listener
    Can someone please tell me if I will get backdated money from when I made the phone call, to change my circumstances? I’m on low rate pip for both, but as my condition has got worse, I had my f2f at home on January 30. I’m just getting myself worked up and want to know that if I’m awarded high rate, will I get the top up backdated? Thank you
  • Governments_A_JokeGovernments_A_Joke Posts: 187Member Chatterbox
    Buster09 said:
    Can someone please tell me if I will get backdated money from when I made the phone call, to change my circumstances? I’m on low rate pip for both, but as my condition has got worse, I had my f2f at home on January 30. I’m just getting myself worked up and want to know that if I’m awarded high rate, will I get the top up backdated? Thank you

    @Buster09 No certainly not you will only get the higher amount from the date of the decision Not from you CC. Nor will it be backdated to the home assessment.

    So if the DWP CM grants you a heigher award it will be from that date of his or her decision only. Good luck.
    This Governments gone way to far. Now let's help Debbie Abraham's and help get this sorted and the Conservatives to stop this crap against the disabled. See more of her story's on her tweet page here https://mobile.twitter.com/Debbie_abrahams and let's get behind her and Support her in the fight for the rights of disabled. Together we must fight and we can conquer.
  • Governments_A_JokeGovernments_A_Joke Posts: 187Member Chatterbox
    edited March 4



    @zacthezebra Well done in getting a decent HCP, I did as well but mine diden't lie or bend the truth either and that was Capita.

    Im interested in the comment you've also made where your PIP was used to make a decision for your ESA SG? I wonder how that become to be.

    ....".............

    I believe as I also was on DLA indefinitely H Mobility L care?
    Then changed to PIP for me has proved better for me and covers my needs, in respects regarding my majority of days where as DLA H care was based on day and night care. So yes in my situation PIP is better.

    I also truly believe GP's carry less wheight under PIP as they don't really know the full extent of your functional ability where as psychiatrists, occupational therapists etc will.


    Thanks glad you got a decent HCP there are some out there but unfortunately there are many very bad ones.

    I was moved from incapacity benefit to ESA. I completed the ESA 50 forms and sent them in and expected a f2f request. I cannot remember when but after my PIP assessment which was carried out at home I received a letter informing me I was in the support group.My PIP decision only took 4 weeks.
    I called the DWP and the lady told me they had used my PIP assessment and the 50 pages of supporting evidence for my ESA award. I never had a f2f ESA



    @zacthezebra Thanks for the reply. Yes I was lucky that the HCP I had done mine she was great as I diden't get a face to face nor a home visit she did it all on Paperwork and evidence and was done the right way and not one lie either.

    As for you ESA Vs PIP it's a little hard to work it out if yours was fate as they where close together. I do know that they use ESA for PIP and PIP for ESA as I had this when I was one DLA and used ESA for that also and clearly states on my DLA award at the time that ESA was used.



    Also my PIP No further review needed I was very lucky and the truth prevailed. Very unusual for Capita.


    This Governments gone way to far. Now let's help Debbie Abraham's and help get this sorted and the Conservatives to stop this crap against the disabled. See more of her story's on her tweet page here https://mobile.twitter.com/Debbie_abrahams and let's get behind her and Support her in the fight for the rights of disabled. Together we must fight and we can conquer.
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,600Member Brian Blessed
    I wasnt seen for ESA. 
    I think it's showing that we are somehow seen as individuals. 

    Although my assessment chap was polite. He viewed me as functioning fine.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • Neil06Neil06 Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Hi guys and girls wildlife knows what am going through at this time round my PIP claim and the mess the DWP have maid on my mandatory reconsideration, I got zero points on my PIP claim I asked for a copie the Capita Assessor report when it turned up she had lied all the way through it she put the total opposite to what I told her she keep saying to me when I tried to tell her how my disability affects me they is personal or I don't need to know that or it's not relevant I have put in a complaint to Capita over this. The Decision Maker said that there was no Specialist input from any Medical Advisors which from day one they had over 40pages worth. I asked for a mandatory reconsideration which I was told I had 28days to send in what I was appealing against which I sent into them and all the evedince again the day after I phoned them, a week later I got a letter dated the day after I asked for the mandatory reconsideration turn me down saying I did not tell them what I was appealing against and their was no evedince provided yet I only sent my mandatory reconsideration appeal in the day after I phoned them and they got it the day after the date on their letter turning me down I phoned up to ask why the letter been sent out turning me down to which I was told not to worry someone still look at it a week later I phoned back up to make sure it was still been looked at to be told no one had looked at it. I told the person on the phone that if I had known the week before that it want going be looked at I would sent off to the tribunal to which I was told to still apply to the tribunal and in the mean time they was going get someone to look at my mandatory reconsideration just in case the out come does not go the way I was hopping my paper work was all reading into the tribunal but if the out come did go my way I can call up and cancel the tribunal the person on the phone even told me that the letter that was sent out to me the day after I had phoned up should never been sent out until after the 28 days had passed and that they received my paper work 2days after I phoned up asking for the mandatory reconsideration a few days later I got a letter saying it was to later for them to look at my mandatory reconsideration and I was to apply for a tribunal yet I was well in the 28 days you are given to send in your mandatory reconsideration it is now going to tribunal just waiting on my date for it the tribunal have got copies of all my medical evedince copies of what I was appealing against and dates times and who I had spoken too at the DWP PIP and what was said.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    Hi @Neil06, the same thing happened to me.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 427Member Chatterbox
    Hi @whistles, sometimes I think that the polite ones are more dangerous....
  • ToffeeToffee Posts: 131Member Chatterbox
    Hi this is my 3rd time applying for pip cab filled in the form for me so am waiting now 
  • Neil06Neil06 Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Hi Toffee it was my 3rd time I had someone help fill my form in for me remember to get hold on a copie of the assessor report and put a compliant into them if their is things in it that you did not do or say my assessor lied all the way through my report she put the total opposite to what I told her.
  • Neil06Neil06 Posts: 21Member Whisperer
    Hi everyone please remember every time you call the DWP PIP to write down the Time Date and Name the person you spoken too and what department their in, also write down what you spoken about this is all evedince if you after go to Tribunal. Remember when you send your paper work into the tribunal to send a copie this in. Also remember to complain to the company that done your assessment if the assessor has put stuff down on their report that was not said or observed Remeber to ask for a copie of their report this will help you if you after ask for a mandatory reconsideration as you can see if they have put something that did not happen or was said or if the DWP have said the opposite to the assessor.
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