If this is your first visit, check out the community guide. You will have to Join us or Sign in before you can post.

Do not understand

Hi..if anyone can help....My appeal is tomorrow .,Feeling so distressed. My advocate has emailed me.  I understand the bit where I have to answer the panels questions, but what does it mean where my case is on paper?  I am attending.  Could anyone explain for me please:

''You also need to understand that we can prep you before the hearing but cannot speak for you, you have to answer the questions and we are not allowed to interrupt as panel have to hear it as you see it and live it not us. We get to ask questions at the end and often a little at first however we will be presenting your case on paper mostly and really it is not essential that we are there as all arguments are on the submissions we send and discuss in advance''



Replies

  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Hi mobbba,
    i had my appeal tribunal last week and if you take anyone with you they are NOT allowed to talk on your behalf. I have difficulty talking especially when anxious and still I had to try. 
    they did ask my friend a few questions at the end and asked if he had anything to ask.
    im not sure what it means when you say “ presenting you care on paper mostly!! 
    Maybe you should call to find out
    sorry I can’t be of much help but want to say , stay strong and good luck 
    Susan
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Thank you Susan, I have tried to call but they are in court.  I don't even know what my submission to the court says.  I feel a bit let down, I have paid them £300 in total to support me x
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Have you not got copies of the paperwork from the DWP and tribunal etc? 
    Try and find out ASAP what’s in the submission, your advocate should know.
    I would feel the same tbh, especially paying for support with your much needed money.
    I didn’t know advocates required money!!?? 
    If it were me, I would keep calling because surely someone else could look into your paperwork if the person is in court and your so worried!
    Susan 
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Thank you...I have rang again.  Someone will be in touch before the hearing.  Its just that bit about ''presenting my case on paper mostly'' and discussing the case beforehand...with who.....Not much sleep for me tonight.
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Hi
    I can totally sympathise, at least try and rest.
    Before the hearings not much good for your anxiety!!
    Could they mean, most of your evidence is written down already and been presented? 
    Id guess discuss with your advocate, probably, and I’m only guessing.
    To be honest I spent most of the evening before my tribunal hearing reading posts in this site. 
    Great advise.
    The questions the board will ask are anyone’s guess but what I’d say is....
    Stick to what the question is and straight short answers unless they ask you to explain further. 
    My hearing was running behind so spent 40 minutes twitching , Iv got involuntary body movements, in the waiting room. 
    Try and rest and please let me know if I can help you with anything else 

    Please let me know how it goes too.
    Susan x
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,603Member Brian Blessed
    Surely if they have taken £300 of you they should at least make sure you understand everything.
    I would expect a phonecall, not an email- unless you have difficulty with this. 

    The idea of having to go to court would scare me death! 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Well said whistles, 
    i didn’t know you had to pay for these services!,
    The tribunal is scary, it was terrifying , but unfortunately that’s what this government have made worthy people do to try and “save money “.
    They don’t care about the stress and anxiety going through a tribunal costs us mentally 

    Susan
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,603Member Brian Blessed
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Hi Victoriad,
    I stay in East Central Scotland, I will check out Circles when I’m feeling up to it.
    I actually didn’t know about the advocacy services even existed until I read it on Scope.
    im so glad I found this site, it’s full of helpful information and posts, helps to know your not alone.

    Susan
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    How are you doing Mobbba?
    I hope the advocacy services have contacted you today regarding your hearing tomorrow.
    I hope you manage to get some sort of rest tonight.
    I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you tomorrow.

    Good Luck
    Susan
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Hi mobbba,
    i hope your ok and today, the tribunal went ok and wasn’t to stressful for you.

    take care
    susan
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Hi Susan...Did not win my appeal.  Cant speak now so gutted.  They slaughtered me in there. Hypothetical questions.  it was very bad x

  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,603Member Brian Blessed
    So sorry. 

    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    I’m so sorry but I understand your distress. As can everyone, whistles says it all :(
    Please try and stay strong, I know it’s really difficult.
    Its absolutely shocking the way they make you feel.
    You can still appeal that decision, I think.
    Im here if and when your ready to chat

    Susan
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    edited March 8
    Hi everyone....Just a note from yesterday.  I am heartbroken.  Just feel totally let down. Lost the appeal. I am 68 years old. I am crippled with Arthritis, need knee replacement, hip replacement, mid foot fusion and ankle replacement.  I have COPD, Asthma and mental health problems. I struggle to walk with the pain and breathlessness. All this is backed up by Consultants, Mental health professionals and my GP. 

    I felt ridiculed by the Judge because I did not understand a question.  One major thing that has really upset me.  Something serious and bad happened to me some years ago causing me to have a mental breakdown.  I had therapy from Clinical Psychologist for 7 years and have since had CBT.

    The judge asked me what happened..  I said I would rather not discuss this, she said well we can't progress then. The doctor stepped in and asked my advocate if she knew, to which she said no. He then said to me you need to tell us what happened.  I started shaking uncontrollably, I felt sick, was breathless. Not one of the panel asked me if I was ok. I then had to say what happened. 

    I am so upset, to be honest I feel totally let down.  The grilling they gave me was the worst I have ever had to encounter.
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Mobbba, 
    Im really shocked and disgusted at the judge and others there.
    Its absolutely appalling.
    I don’t understand why they basically blackmailed you into telling them something, which I really don’t think has any relevance in your medical problems, possibly mental health but why ask you something that clearly Is disturbing and you’d rather forget!! 
    I have mental health problems and have had a few things happen in my life, I tried to take my own life a few years ago, it was in my tribunal paper.
    The professor bit ask when my problems start and I said around the time of the overdose but not once did they ask me why I did it or even what happened.
    Maybe when your feeling a little less upset you could call the CAB or Law centre near you to ask advice.

    I hope you at least got a little rest last night.

    Always here 
    Susan
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Susan...Thank you for your support.
    The Doctor asked me a hypothetical question.  If you were in your street and there were 3 fire engines an ambulance and police cars outside your home and you were 200 meters from your home and you could not get home what would you do.  I said I said I would wait a while to see if it cleared, Doctor said its not clearing for 24 hours., what will you do to get home.  I said I would have to walk.  I know it will take ages and I would be in pain and breathless but I would have no other choice.  He said there you are you can walk if you put your mind to it.

    Plus many other questions like that.

    Thank you
    Carole
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    OMG...
    Mobbba,
    I wonder what the doctors answer who be...
    I wouldn’t know how to answe that, clearly it’s not ever happened so how would anyone know???
    And to say “ you can walk if you put your mind to it” !!
    i was asked how I managed to attend the dentist and how did I get my haircut and highlighted!! 
    I thought those were bizarre questions but yours were out there.
    I do hope your advocate, the one you spent £300 on is now going to help you try and take this further.
    You probably just feel like you can’t do that all again, I did but maybe in a day or so, think and talk to family/friends or start a new discussion on here for help and advise.
    i say start a new discussion as it would reach more people.

    Susan
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    You now need to request a statement of reasons and a record of proceedings and get some advice about appealling to the upper tribunal. 
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Thank you mikehughescq.  Would this make any difference?  I don't feel I can go through another tribunal hearing. I was told they were impartial and I felt like I was being quizzed by DWP.  I had DLA full mobiity and low rate car since 2001. My symptoms are much worse than when I first applied, so I cannot see a reason for zero points on both now.


    Carole
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Hi Susan...I have taken your advice and posted on the DLA/PIP thread

    Carole
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    mobbba said:
    Thank you mikehughescq.  Would this make any difference?  I don't feel I can go through another tribunal hearing. I was told they were impartial and I felt like I was being quizzed by DWP.  I had DLA full mobiity and low rate car since 2001. My symptoms are much worse than when I first applied, so I cannot see a reason for zero points on both now.


    Carole
    People rarely have rehearings as bad as the bad one which led to an appeal to UT. The fact your symptoms are worse is not relevant though. What matters is the consequence of your impairment for the points scoring activities you were aiming for. For example, the symptoms of dementia for someone on AA may get worse but if they’re all day time only then lower rate would still be correct.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 570Member Chatterbox
    @mobbba I'm certainly not an expert, but the fact that he said, Well, you can walk 200m if you put your mind to it" is probably a reason to appeal to the UTT. They didn't take into account safety, repeatability, etc. 
    Also, I don't know if them forcing you to tell them why you had a breakdown is an error of law in any way, but it's certainly a moral error! Jesus. 

    I'm so sorry this happened to you.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    edited March 10
    Understanding why someone had a breakdown would be critical to ascertaining whether an episode of poor mental ill health was triggered by a one off incident unlikely to happen again and with no long term impact; whether it was a one off with long term impact, or, whether it was one if a series of events etc. 

    It’s largely unrealistic to expect to be able to claim a benefit from the public purse and to be able to both withhold information and and at the same time expect decision makers and appeal tribunals to possess the ability to read between the lines and so on. 

    Also worth saying that a tribunal will only resort to hypothetical questions if they can’t make findings of fact from the evidence as presented. Once you’re there in person this means you were largely unable to give them real world examples of the impact of your impairments so they had to resort to the hypothetical. Representation as opposed to advocacy would have pulled that information out in advance of the hearing.

    Of course how they ask, when all they can do in a short time is ask questions, can be confusing, upsetting and misunderstood but, depending on the state of the case, there are definitely circumstances in which they should ask and the error of law would be to not do so. If the full details were in the appeal papers then there’s nothing to ask but if there are gaps (of the sort I describe in my first paragraph) then I can see why they would ask.

    All that said, the comment re: “putting your mind to it” has plenty of scope to be an error law.
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Mike...Thank you for your comment.  I see you are a legal expert.  I understand what you are saying. But on the basis of my medical evidence I feel I should have received some points instead of zero. I started receiving DLA in 2001, was re assessed in 2009.

    I have many aids from Social Services which include a wheelchair. I have Breathing problems. I have to wear a prescribed boot to be able to put my foot on the floor because of ankle and foot arthritis.  Its not as if mental health problems are the only thing wrong with me. Overwhelming evidence from 2 consultants and a professor of Rheumatology stating my problems walking, plus other.!
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Hi Mobbba,
    i do hope your feeling a little better.
    think you should seek advice about your appeal decision,
    you might then have a better and clearer understanding of what chance you have at an upper tribunal

    take care 
    Susan 
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Hi Susan.... I need to find a Solicitor I think to do that.  I am not au fait with the legal side of things.  I have just answered Mike who threw a few things out there.

    I understand what he is saying but the panel had lettersfrom Mental Health professionals detailing my problems so they obviously knew that things had happened to me or I would not have had therapy for 7 years running and then 2 lots of CBT after that.  I honestly don't understand.

    Regards
    Carole
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    Carole,
    Try the Law Centre, there’s one near me, I didn’t know they existed until someone kindly told me about them on this site.
    you can search for the closest one to yourself, if they cannot help maybe they can help you find someone who can.
    It’s a very uncertain road for you, again, but try and stay strong 

    Susan
  • Pippa_ScopePippa_Scope Posts: 3,647Administrator Scope community team
    I'm so sorry to hear about your experience @mobbba, I can only imagine how difficult the Tribunal and the days following it must have been for you. It's good to see that you've had some support and guidance off other members of the community- if there's anything we can assist you with, please do let us know. 
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Thank you Pippa.  I am not to well.  Had panic attack last Friday, still recovering.
  • Pippa_ScopePippa_Scope Posts: 3,647Administrator Scope community team
    So sorry to hear that, @mobbba. Are you receiving any support for your mental health?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    mobbba said:
    Mike...Thank you for your comment.  I see you are a legal expert.  I understand what you are saying. But on the basis of my medical evidence I feel I should have received some points instead of zero. I started receiving DLA in 2001, was re assessed in 2009.

    I have many aids from Social Services which include a wheelchair. I have Breathing problems. I have to wear a prescribed boot to be able to put my foot on the floor because of ankle and foot arthritis.  Its not as if mental health problems are the only thing wrong with me. Overwhelming evidence from 2 consultants and a professor of Rheumatology stating my problems walking, plus other.!
    Back to the same thing really. I very much doubt anyone’s disputing your health issues. What isn’t being explained are the consequences. It’s those which get you PIP and it’s largely those which won’t be covered in medical evidence. 
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,603Member Brian Blessed
    I would have thought mobility would have scored you something? I actually don't fully get the self tests because I got enhanced and i scored myself zero! 

    I suppose my thinking is, how has it got to this stage without anyone advising what proof you need to supply beyond the medical. Pip is different in that they want proof of the assistance, aids, support and consequences without. Proof of consequences in my case is the emergency services. You can get copies of any hospital records etc.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    The burden of proof in terms of evidence for PIP is exactly the same as for DLA. It’s the balance of probabilities. They don’t need proof of assistance, aids pr support. What they need is consistent evidence which largely points in the sand direction. You are the claimant. The burden is on you to provide the evidence. The best evidence is personal and anecdotal. 

    @whistles there is absolutely no way anyone will contact the emergency services. The burden of proving entitlement falls squarely on you not the DWP.  So, for example, a side of A4 explaining the full circumstances of your last couple if hospital admissions will almost always be more valuabke than anything medical. 
  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,603Member Brian Blessed
    Ok help me out here.

    Someone orders my medication, collects it, supervises to check i haven't forgotten. This person told the assessor this and that's what the forms also said, plus I have a dosette box.
    This scored me a zero because the assessor decided i could do it myself as i had no cognitive, memory issues.
    What else can I have provided? 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    edited March 13
    Makes perfect sense. None of the above post says why you need to have someone do it. What’s the diagnosis of your memory issue? Without that key bit of info they’re perfectly entitled to conclude there’s no reason for you to have what you have. People assume DWP have magical powers of deduction but if you don’t tell them they don’t know.
  • BarbiesnemesisBarbiesnemesis Posts: 86Member Chatterbox
    I know how the system 'works' but why does this have to be the system? For Christ's sake the whole process expects such a high level of knowledge for a person to get through it that you are practically set up to fail from the outset.
  • maid08maid08 Posts: 307Member, Member - under moderation Chatterbox
    edited March 13
    Makes perfect sense. None of the above post says why you need to have someone do it. What’s the diagnosis of your memory issue? Without that key bit of info they’re perfectly entitled to conclude there’s no reason for you to have what you have. People assume DWP have magical powers of deduction but if you don’t tell them they don’t know.
    makes perfect sense ummm could be short-term loss due to tabs or illness my meds are sorted for me due to memory  perhaps you can tell us how to prove this apart from doctors decisions also when i sorted them i would put them on table turn to get water then walk in sit down watching teli till i was asked why are youer tablets here??? ohhh but first lets ask why tab are in doset box ???


  • whistleswhistles Posts: 1,603Member Brian Blessed
    edited March 13
    They were given my diagnosis in section two along with it causing memory issues and migraines (on long term pain relief) 
    I explained the above in more detail plus the why in section five. 
    It's the side effects of the condition that causes my memory to be like sludge at times. 

    I think you have summed it up though. No diagnosis, forget it. They were ok with that but ignored the side effects of it.

    @Barbiesnemesis one of the reasons I scored zero on other things was because i had insight and could keep myself safe. 

    We are the most vulnerable in society and seem to need to be able to function just to fill the form out properly. 
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • maid08maid08 Posts: 307Member, Member - under moderation Chatterbox
    whistles said:
    I would have thought mobility would have scored you something? I actually don't fully get the self tests because I got enhanced and i scored myself zero! 

    I suppose my thinking is, how has it got to this stage without anyone advising what proof you need to supply beyond the medical. Pip is different in that they want proof of the assistance, aids, support and consequences without. Proof of consequences in my case is the emergency services. You can get copies of any hospital records etc.
    what is never explained is **** doctors or consultants reports when they say supply medical evidence ?they mean just explain how you are day to day hour by hour who does what  and can you breathe or move in any way if yes ahh well no pip   lets not keep on listening to you must prove how ill u are  we can all claim to be ill  but only doctors can prove you are  and they know how in the future it will affect you  such as memory loss or laps i know one sure fact if i have another acessmant they will tread lightly there will be no more treated like a fool 
  • maid08maid08 Posts: 307Member, Member - under moderation Chatterbox
    Makes perfect sense. None of the above post says why you need to have someone do it. What’s the diagnosis of your memory issue? Without that key bit of info they’re perfectly entitled to conclude there’s no reason for you to have what you have. People assume DWP have magical powers of deduction but if you don’t tell them they don’t know.
    hahaha joking now the last sentence come on now mike they can cure you of all illness just sat there asking you childish questions  and when you tell them as many are finding out  how desperately ill you are matched by medical evidence and fail then wait months for appeal or mr 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    whistles said:
    They were given my diagnosis in section two along with it causing memory issues and migraines (on long term pain relief) 
    I explained the above in more detail plus the why in section five. 
    It's the side effects of the condition that causes my memory to be like sludge at times. 

    I think you have summed it up though. No diagnosis, forget it. They were ok with that but ignored the side effects of it.

    @Barbiesnemesis one of the reasons I scored zero on other things was because i had insight and could keep myself safe. 

    We are the most vulnerable in society and seem to need to be able to function just to fill the form out properly. 
    A lack of diagnosis shouldn’t impact DLA or PIP. Sounds to me like you’re suffering from the DWP suffering from memory loss. They have recently started to issue decisions stating that a dosette is not an aid, despite the fact they list it as an example in the claim pack! Clearly you have a case for those points.
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    The burden of proof in terms of evidence for PIP is exactly the same as for DLA. It’s the balance of probabilities. They don’t need proof of assistance, aids pr support. What they need is consistent evidence which largely points in the sand direction. You are the claimant. The burden is on you to provide the evidence. The best evidence is personal and anecdotal. 

    @whistles there is absolutely no way anyone will contact the emergency services. The burden of proving entitlement falls squarely on you not the DWP.  So, for example, a side of A4 explaining the full circumstances of your last couple if hospital admissions will almost always be more valuabke than anything medical. 

     
    The burden of proof in terms of evidence for PIP is exactly the same as for DLA. It’s the balance of probabilities. They don’t need proof of assistance, aids pr support. What they need is consistent evidence which largely points in the sand direction. You are the claimant. The burden is on you to provide the evidence. The best evidence is personal and anecdotal. 

    Mike can you please explain the above comment. Where do I get to explain how these medical issues affect my life?

    I did spell it out on the assessment...in detail.  Failed assessment.
    I reiterated it on Mandatory Reconsideration  No joy there
    I tried to explain at the appeal and was asked questions, which i answered, which were yes/no, but was not allowed to elaborate, I tried to explain and and was asked another question before I could get out what I wanted to say.  I felt they were trick questions.  Like:......"Do you cry" I answered yes he then asked "when".
    How can you explain yourself to people that do not want to listen and had your case mapped out before you even went into court.  I did catch the DWP representative looking at the judge on at least two questions.

    I have taken some advice, This is what I found out

     "Carole....I have spoken to a friend who is a tribunal ss judge she urges you to make a complaint about the judge in question and panel as she categorically states that if anxiety is listed on the submission and in the bundle then the court are not allowed to probe too deeply and certainly not when PTSD is listed in the paperwork or a stressful event in the past. She was horrified to hear what happened as was I and strongly recommends that this should be challenged on the grounds of an error and that the tribunal acted out of their jurisdiction. She was also concerned to hear she was awarded nil points also" 

  • BarbiesnemesisBarbiesnemesis Posts: 86Member Chatterbox
    I hope this works - https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=how+to+win+pip+tribunal&view=detail&mid=8FF0E9BA516E2F13FD9E8FF0E9BA516E2F13FD9E&FORM=VIRE. This is the best description of how tribunals work that I found. It describes what mikehughescq is describing. I found it really useful for getting an insight into the tribunal process.
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    Yes  I have looked at this.  This only will work if you are given a chance to describe in detail how your day is, how your health problems affect you. I was not allowed to say anything out of turn I could only answer questions.  I was cut short if I tried to explain any situation.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    @mobba your best shot is always going to be the claim pack and at an appeal. It sounds to me as though you need representation in order to take this forwards. 

    Also worth adding that it’s news to me that a tribunal can’t be inquisitorial in cases of anxiety. 
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,014Member Brian Blessed
    I hope your feeling a little better mobbba x
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    @mikehughescq ;  Aaah, that's were things went wrong, with the claim pack!!
    I cannot write with the fingers and thumb on my right hand. so I used spoken word. Then printed the explanations to descriptors and pinned the sheets to each PIP2 form page. 

    The DWP took the printed sheets out of the form and put them in file number 19 (DWP) told me.

    When the assessor came to my house she said we have no details of what is wrong with you.  I told her about the pinned pages, she said she did not have them, I offered to get the file out of the cupboard but she said no.

    When I was turned down with zero points on all counts.  I spoke with DWP who told me that file number 19 had not been opened by the assessor, I said I was shocked, she said I should do a MR and they would look into it.

    Guess what they turned me down too....sorry to rattle on but I really feel hard done by.

    I agree Mike I really need some help.
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
    @mikehughescq ;  Can you please recommend where I can go to get some help?

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 2,261Member Brian Blessed
    Whereabouts do you live?
  • mobbbamobbba Posts: 28Member Whisperer
  • Pippa_ScopePippa_Scope Posts: 3,647Administrator Scope community team
    Hi @mobbba, have you tried your local Citizens Advice? You can find where they are by using the search on the CA website.
Sign in or join us to comment.