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  • April2018momApril2018mom Posts: 479Member Pioneering
    Interesting article. Thank you for this. I’ll have a look. 
  • susan48susan48 Posts: 2,159Member Disability Gamechanger
  • atlas46atlas46 Posts: 633Community champion Pioneering
    Hi @Tigermoth42

    Great post, good old DWP, they are despicable.

    Looking forward to reading reports!!
  • thespicemanthespiceman Posts: 4,202Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hello @Tigermoth42 ; How are you thanks my friend for this. I always knew as I think all of us did . What is really going on.

    Having been acutely aware of how we are been treated and demonised . More and more. Last assessment few weeks ago really set me off. Absolutely ridiculous in every sense. Still haunts me . Also where is the legality now that is obviously needed in all assessments.

    Supposed changes that all Party Government Committee where is that..?

    Want a lawyer or legal representation every time  Always but try and get anything to help me .Whether advocate or other support does not exist.

    Great to talk to you Take care.

    @thespiceman
  • Tigermoth42Tigermoth42 Posts: 232Member Pioneering
    Hi my lovely friend @thespiceman, hope you’re as well as can be. The more I read the more incensed I get, I’ve heard recently from a lady in Northern Ireland who has, erroneously, been sent paperwork which categorically sets out the bonus structure that these assessors work with.

    Allegedly states they get £50 for every failed claim on top of the £2000 per month salary. For her own legal safety she’s been advised to not circulate copies of the paperwork but it has gone to her legal team. Be very interesting to see what happens next. 

    What happened at at your latest assessment? Things have got to change - and fast! 

    Wishing you a peaceful day, your friend @Tigermoth42
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger

    Supposed changes that all Party Government Committee where is that..?

    Do you really expect all that was said to be wrong with the system will be rectified?
    The longer these things stay in the side-lines the better, eventually to be kicked into the long grass never to see the light of day.

    It is not in the governments interest to make these changes - their one and only intended outcome is to reduce the costs of PIP in any way that they can.
  • MisscleoMisscleo Posts: 534Member Pioneering
    I dont think anything would be better if we had a different govenment.
    The whole thing is about saving money. 
    I believe they could save money elsewhere millions are chuck away every year. BUT disabled people are the easy target.
     If the police. Courts. Councils did more to stop Disability Hate Crime less people would think they have a right to victimize the disabled 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,313Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:

    Supposed changes that all Party Government Committee where is that..?

    Do you really expect all that was said to be wrong with the system will be rectified?
    The longer these things stay in the side-lines the better, eventually to be kicked into the long grass never to see the light of day.

    It is not in the governments interest to make these changes - their one and only intended outcome is to reduce the costs of PIP in any way that they can.
    No money is being saved with PIP. The intent was to save 20% off the DLA budget and that later became an intent to direct the savings to UC.. However, last I looked PIP was running 118% over budget so there have been no savings at all.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    Yadnad said:


    No money is being saved with PIP. The intent was to save 20% off the DLA budget and that later became an intent to direct the savings to UC.. However, last I looked PIP was running 118% over budget so there have been no savings at all.
    I agree that if you include the costs of running the appeal system.
    It must be a nightmare for the Treasury to see what is happening with PIP.

    There are only two ways that they can get it back on track 
    1. reduce the amount being paid out by 25% - cutting the values of the standard and enhanced elements.
    2.Or, tighten up on the way the system is run by making it more difficult for many to get any award - maybe reduce the walking distance to 10 metres, or do away with the reliability factor or remove the 2 pointers for aids.

    But for people to expect that things will get easier and awards more common it will never happen.
  • atlas46atlas46 Posts: 633Community champion Pioneering
    Hi @Yadnad

    Thank you for your kind offerings on how the Government should deal with the pitfall of it's PIP budget.

    Your suggestions have been noted.


  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    atlas46 said:
    Hi @Yadnad

    Thank you for your kind offerings on how the Government should deal with the pitfall of it's PIP budget.

    Your suggestions have been noted.
    It's only common sense if, as we are made to believe that there is limited funding for PIP, to get the thing back on track. It is what I would be doing if I was still in business 
    Lets's  be honest no country including our own can't afford to continually fund an ever increasing welfare budget without it impacting on other areas of spending for example the NHS or education.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,313Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    The ever increasing welfare budget concept is a con. That’s only true if you include pensions. Take that out and you need to ask why the need for savings at all.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    Yes given the portion applicable to pensions. But the welfare budget does include pensions. Or should it be that pensioners no longer get increases and everyone has a 10% drop in the amount of state pension they were getting?
    As you said earlier the PIP savings of 20% were implemented to fund UC. So if the pensions budget continues to rise something somewhere else has to give way for that increase - benefits?

    Mind you I am actually contributing towards the surplus at the rate of over £200 a week compared to what I was receiving at the earlier part of this year. My contribution in a year would amount to over £10,920 of unclaimed PIP/GPC/council tax support.

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,313Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Why does it have to give way? That starts from an assumption that the money supply is finite and can only decrease when as we saw with “quantative easimg” government can produce money when it feels like. The idea that you can’t have everything properly funded and must therefore make hard decisions between competing things is a neo-liberal myth.
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 804Member Pioneering
    8 *cheers for @mikehughescq * Austerity doesn't work, slows the recovery of the economy, and wasn't necessary in the first place.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2018
    Why does it have to give way? That starts from an assumption that the money supply is finite and can only decrease when as we saw with “quantative easimg” government can produce money when it feels like. The idea that you can’t have everything properly funded and must therefore make hard decisions between competing things is a neo-liberal myth.
    Grief Mike we do seem to get into some deep conversations.
    For a start the more money that you print reduces the value of the whole money chain. Germany was a prime example of that as well as France.
    If you look at the country as a large company. The value of that company is based on it's net worth - it's balance sheet - it's share value. The more valuable it becomes the more people want to invest in it, Now if the profit and loss account starts to change in a way that more goes out than comes in then that will directly affect the value of the company.
    So to keep things sweet, you have to find the balance between how low dare you allow the profit to drop before people become jittery about the affect it will have on their investment in the company. It's a very fine line. To err on the side of keeping everyone happy then the profit has to be managed - you either increase your income or reduce your expenditure or both.
    Politically it may be difficult to increase income - who really wants a tax increase. So you must reduce your expenditure.

    Hence why a careful balance has to be found with how much can be paid out in all of the budgets including Welfare. If Education wants an extra 10% as does Defence with another 10% somewhere else there has to be a corresponding reduction - Welfare is always a favourite one for the Tories as is Defence for Labour. 
     
    On the whole those who are paid out of the welfare pot tend to be the least productive in society - they don't actually produce that much income.
    Pensioners and other welfare recipients consistently drain the economy. They can't really get at the pensioners - they are part of the political gravy boat that would carry them into power. So who have we got left with? 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Waylay said:
    8 *cheers for @mikehughescq * Austerity doesn't work, slows the recovery of the economy, and wasn't necessary in the first place.
    London School of Economics?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,313Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    @yadnad love that we can get into this stuff. I think the error is in thinking of the country as a large company. There’s no obligation to turn a profit for shareholders and a million and one other ways in which a country differs. It’s the mistake Thatcher made with her “household principle”. There’s no obligation to balance the books and no country has ever done so. Countries which cut the money supply do so at the behest of the 1% who want to see the value of their 1% rise. Countries which spend more than they receive thrive and always have. 
  • elleaellea Posts: 21Member Listener
    Yadnad said:
    Yadnad said:


    No money is being saved with PIP. The intent was to save 20% off the DLA budget and that later became an intent to direct the savings to UC.. However, last I looked PIP was running 118% over budget so there have been no savings at all.
    I agree that if you include the costs of running the appeal system.
    It must be a nightmare for the Treasury to see what is happening with PIP.

    There are only two ways that they can get it back on track 
    1. reduce the amount being paid out by 25% - cutting the values of the standard and enhanced elements.
    2.Or, tighten up on the way the system is run by making it more difficult for many to get any award - maybe reduce the walking distance to 10 metres, or do away with the reliability factor or remove the 2 pointers for aids.

    But for people to expect that things will get easier and awards more common it will never happen.
    They have tightened up the way its run! They are already making it as difficult as possible, even for those who are genuinely in need! They don't work in a fair and honest way if they are ignoring evidence and writing dishonest reports!
  • cynthia57cynthia57 Posts: 3Member Listener
    A benefits advisor told me that 70% of appeals win so what does that tell you? That they just automatically reject 70% of our claims hoping we will not appeal I cannot stress the importance of having a benefits advisor fill these forms in for you I applied every year for 7 years and was rejected but the 8th year I had an advisor fill in the forms and I was successful 

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,313Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    71% for PIP in England. 75% in Wales but both figures are only if you have a representative. However, it’s a misunderstanding of those statistics to suggest that 70% of claims are rejected. They are not. 78% are successful in some way and 22% are not. 19% of challenges are successful at mandatory reconsideration. The ones which go to MR or are appealed include some of the 78% and some of the 22% and it’s 71% of those which succeed.

    The reason you were unsuccessful for 7 years was you kept reapplying and presumably kept doing the same thing with the same evidence and then, presumably, didn’t pursue those claims through MR and appeal. There are few more pointless things you can do than just keep reapplying especially given the sheer volume of good and free information about how to get it right first time. 

    It’s also largely a myth that you need a benefits adviser to complete a form. Most claims succeed without any input from another person. Advisers have no magical form of words they use. Good advisers dislike form filling as much as the next person. All they do is ensure that under the “Anything else” bit for each question you give 2 or 3 detailed examples of what happened last time you tried to perform that specific activity. The detail is no more profound than what happened; when; where; why; how; with whom as a witness; what happened next. Then it’s just a case of emphasising per question the aspect of “reliably” which applies. That’s it. Nothing more profound than that. 

    Use the extra information section to make a case for the length of the award. Keep a copy of the whole form and you’re done. Doesn’t need recorded delivery etc. as it’s being posted to a privatised mail delivery centre not the DWP. 
  • cat6873cat6873 Posts: 35Member Connected
    My sister asked the 'nurse' at my PIP assessment who she worked for and she said 'Maximus'...strange enough when I got the letter for my travel expenses back on the heading it said 'Atos'. Anybody else got this?
  • Kas29Kas29 Posts: 3Member Listener
    Surely if the government wanted to save money they should not have paid atos and any others as this has cost the government a fortune as they have been tied into them for years, yes theyve got to save money but keep changing different systems wont save money it cost money, i had 2 interviews within 6 months by atos, i was never told how i got on but my benefits never got stopped, both passed but i noticed that outside there were a few cameras when i was inside the woman on reception was in the room behind the desk and she didnt close the door i noticed they were watching people coming in and also in the waiting area, the picking on the disabled makes me so annoyed there must be better way and cheaper to catch people on
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    cat6873 said:
    My sister asked the 'nurse' at my PIP assessment who she worked for and she said 'Maximus'...strange enough when I got the letter for my travel expenses back on the heading it said 'Atos'. Anybody else got this?
    Hi cat6873 me to with that its a joke do they think we can not read if you ask for a copy of your report it has at the top of the page Atos Healthcare and as for Maximus there a US outsourcing firm and get this form The DWP pays Maximus £200 for each report At the face-to-face assessments, the assessors – who are nurses, doctors or physiotherapists – are guided and prompted by a computer programme, designed by Atos in conjunction with the DWP, my bet is the not a lot get a assessor who is a doctors or physiotherapists as must of the people that put post up about there  face-to-face assessment is with a nurse and how there still doing this job after this report back in 2015 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26766345 its just blows my mind all the evidence was there in black and white or is this just me ??????????
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,059Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Gerald said:

    Hi cat6873 me to with that its a joke do they think we can not read if you ask for a copy of your report it has at the top of the page Atos Healthcare and as for Maximus there a US outsourcing firm and get this form The DWP pays Maximus £200 for each report At the face-to-face assessments, the assessors – who are nurses, doctors or physiotherapists – are guided and prompted by a computer programme, designed by Atos in conjunction with the DWP, my bet is the not a lot get a assessor who is a doctors or physiotherapists as must of the people that put post up about there  face-to-face assessment is with a nurse and how there still doing this job after this report back in 2015 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26766345 its just blows my mind all the evidence was there in black and white or is this just me ??????????
    This thread is all about PIP, yet the link in your comment is about fitness to work, which is ESA and nothing at all to do with PIP. PIP is not about your fitness to work.
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