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ATOS- requesting a confirmation letter

tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
edited May 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
I just received my PIP F2F appointment  and when i enquired about a home visit or taxi  to & from the centre, They told me on the phone that they had authorised  expenses for a taxi, but not a home visit,

My problem with what i was told  is this, I have no written  confirmation  that they will reimburse the cost of a taxi, i requested this on the phone, but was told they don't provide  letters of confirmation, and it's on their system , I don't trust them , So i'm trying to get a letter to support a HV from my GP
ASAP  Has any one else had experiience with ATOS and TAXI fares?

Replies

  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    I am in the ATOS area (Canterbury) and when I first and only time I asked about a home visit or taxi I was told no chance! They asked if when I see the GP do they come to see me at home - No they don't. Based on that ATOS decided that I could get a bus to Canterbury, then get another bus to the bus stop near the assessment centre and then walk nearly half a mile to the centre in the middle of an industrial estate..
    Thankfully I had a Motability car so my wife drove me there. 

    Without that car I would have had to pay for a taxi myself.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    The Centre is quite a distance from the bus stop, too far, A distance some 500mtrs or more,walk this imo is very dilberate, to justify denying PIP claims
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    It is. You had to walk back to the road that goes into the industrial park, cross over a wide major road and then walk around the industrial units to get to the building. There is no way that I would have been able to get across the road in one go never mind the rest of the journey.

    Maybe you are right, the assessor assumed in their report that I could walk with no difficulty up to 200 metres without stopping.
    This was soon disproved using hospital test results gained from a walking machine with which the consultant assessed that I could only manage a few metres!

    Well at the end of the day what the assessor says is always open to interpretation and is nothing more than an opinion based on seeing me for 30mins.
  • whistleswhistles Member Posts: 1,603 Disability Gamechanger
    They give you an expenses form when you arrive at the assessment.
    Do not follow me, I don't know where I am going.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    It is not deliberate at all. Their contract assumed venues wouldn’t be an issue but put no money in for adaptations etc. and certainly didn’t take into account that many venues they thought would be available to them haven’t been because many organisations politically oppose them on the quiet. So, they’ve tried for empty hospital buildings for example and been refused because their presence has been seen as incompatible. It’s not widely publicised but it is an issue.

    Similarly, for all the reports about inaccessible buildings, they’ve been given little choice about their whereabouts. It says much about the distrust they’ve engendered that people genuinely believe these locations are deliberately problematic. 

    ATOS need to be challenged under EA 10 as regards the refusal to do home visits but there should be no issue with taxi fares.
  • YadnadYadnad Member - under moderation Posts: 2,862 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2018
    I agree with you Mike that none of this was intentional. Given where ATOS actually hold these assessments already had me thinking that they were scraping the barrel in trying to find accommodation. The one I went to used to be a showroom and sales offices last used by a tile distributor! How do I know - I bought tiles there in the late 80's and to make it more obvious the company signs were still on the outside wall.
    What annoys me is that there is a perfect suite of offices with a bus stop outside that ATOS used when carrying out the ESA assessments  as well as the IIDB assessments not more than a few miles away on the other side of the city.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, but you can’t have the same assessors doing more than one benefit.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    what's EA 10 ?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    The Equality Act 2010.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Well after sending both DWP and ATOS (PIP) Copies of the gp'sletter supporting a Home visit and covering letter as to why i couldn't attend the previous PIP assessment today i recieved another PIP appointment leter, for the same venue,So i rang them  and asked them why had they ignored by GP's supporting letter for a home visit,? they tried, without success to fob me off, in the end i was told that the current appoinmentwould be cancelled and they would be in touch either with a appointment for a home visit or why they where unable to offer this, so 2mths waiting for nothing 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    The key to this is to ask for the home visit formally under the Equality Act 2010 as a reasonable adjustment. 
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Look's like that they have now formally agreed to a home visit ,received a letter from PIP saying this no appointment date as yet though
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited August 2018
    Well, sucessin the Home Visit assessment , had it last week  was quite short around 25 mins ,not sure what they will decide,  They asked the trick question  about how many mins i am able to walk which i also added a  max distance in my answer, though i know that they don't always write what you tell them
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Well got my PIP decision and 0 points Atossers preferred score, And because i told them that i probably could walk for 2-3 mins i must be able to cover 200mtrs in that time, I have no specialist input, she omitted the bit about me being able to walk as far as the bus stop some 40mtrs away or that some days i am unable to walk even that far, without being in pain, Omitted that fact that the majority of the pain is when i bare weight on my legs and another clueless remark was that i am not taking significant pain relief And that because i can raise and lower my legs whilst sat on my couch i have no restrictions, i never said i had limited movement of the knee joint But that does not mean that it is stable, and what about the bone on bone contact ???? she should not be in the medical profession because she knows sweet FA
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    MR As predicted No change in their decision, So appeal process started
    The report or reasoning for the MR decision  differs from the 1st reasons for not awarding standard mobility, They claim that they carried out a "musculoskeletal overview examination" and that was able to follow instructions and there were no siugnificant restrictions of the lower or upper limbs,  Somehow they claim to know that there was no loss of power in both legs, and i could fully straighten my knee  and know that my knee moves within normal range,and that there was no signs of muscle wastage that would be expected with someone with little mobility  she assertained all this in my home whilst i was sat on a couch next to their ATOS goon, fully clothed and she did not measure my leg muscles or even touch my legs feet ect at any time,  fabrication, pointless them even turning up
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited November 2019
    Ok just an update of progress appear was heard and i was awarded PIP standard  mobility  for 2 years ,So from Feb 2018  till next year, the downside is that as soon as they process my award (DWP) i will need to re apply, i just hope they won't put me through the same hoops again, so time to get that blue badge and 50% refund of the road tax , once i get my award letter , Hopefully it will help with any future ESA assessment, due to the distance I'm able to walk, although they completely ignored it in their decision  but scored me on another health issue  the HMCTS paid in advance for my travel by taxi  to and from the tribunal hearing, without any real hassle (at least something works as it ought to)
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    Great news on the Tribunal win. It can take 8 weeks to receive backdated money after the win.

    You will need to wait for your award letter from DWP before you can apply for the blue badge and automatically qualify, if you scored at least 8 points in the moving around part.

    Do be aware that the blue badge may not be of much help to you for future ESA reviews because the criteria is different. For the mobilising descriptor for ESA they also assess your ability to use a self propel wheelchair, it's not just walking.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • paffuto10paffuto10 Member Posts: 388 Pioneering
    @tomm

    Hi and well done  :)

    Can't believe it starts all over again for you in just a few months!!

    All I can say is I hope it's easier next time and sending you best wishes. 


  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Administrator Posts: 5,573 Scope community team
    Great news on the tribunal win @tomm. As @paffuto10 says, I hope it's a smoother process for you next time!
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Administrator Posts: 7,598 Scope community team
    Thank you for updating us @tomm, that's great news! I really hope next time is easier for you!
    Community Partner

    Scope
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited November 2019
    Yeah, my CAB rep did query the end date, and they explained about it being a 2 yr award, because i may have had a TKR by then( which i have no intentions of doing) i wouldn't be likely to be able to get it done and be mobile again by that time anyway DVLA say that i can get a 50% refund on my car tax, that i have paid from the start of the award, Just waiting for the award letter to apply for a blue badge, i may just go for a bus pass too, in case my car is ever off the road though i may have to wait until after the next assessment , because i doubt they will do it on paper,
    It would be nice if they do use common sense  and do a paper assessment Chloe & Adrian

    What happens as far as payments go if i have applied again for PIP before the existing claim expires will they keep paying whilst i wait a decision ? or would payments stop until they have assessed and made their decision? And then backdate it?
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Great news on the Tribunal win. It can take 8 weeks to receive backdated money after the win.

    You will need to wait for your award letter from DWP before you can apply for the blue badge and automatically qualify, if you scored at least 8 points in the moving around part.

    Do be aware that the blue badge may not be of much help to you for future ESA reviews because the criteria is different. For the mobilising descriptor for ESA they also assess your ability to use a self propel wheelchair, it's not just walking.

    Yeah, i know the non-existent mystical wheelchair :D But i have OA in one wrist and thumb , so propelling would be a round trip :D But i am currently in the SG for a different reason , they ignored my O/A in their decision  no points either  for that , but got 15 in different descriptor  for the SG
  • westwellgoddardwestwellgoddard Member Posts: 19 Listener
    I had an assessment with ATOS this time last year, GP wrote a letter asking for home appointment because of my conditions they ignored it and said because I can go to my GP I can go there. They paid for a taxi for me they arrange that all for you you don’t claim nothing back
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    In my case i had other clinical reasons that don't fall in the scope of PIP, But are relevant to my ESA SG award which were also given as a reason why i couldn't use a TAXI, They weren't forthcoming with the offer of a TAXI on account,
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Just had a letter from PIP regarding the claim wanting me to answer a few questions  and confirm which bank i wanted the payments paid into, So i rang them, was asked the same questions as on the letter, and was told that the back dated amount would be paid into my account within the next 7 days, and they will send a letter explaining what date my monthly payments will start and be paid on each month, i asked about the renewal and payments after the 2 yr award ends(Feb 2020) was told that they continue until a new decision is made 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    tomm said:
    i asked about the renewal and payments after the 2 yr award ends(Feb 2020) was told that they continue until a new decision is made 
    That's not the correct advice you've been given there i'm afraid, which is often the case when ringing DWP for advice. As your award is due to end in Feb 2020 then you should be contacted very soon about re-apply. You'll be sent more PIP2 forms, which you'll need to fill in and return with all your evidence.

    If a decision hasn't been made by the end date of your award then your PIP will stop. If your awarded again once the decision is made you'll be backdated the money from the date it stopped.

    The reason is doesn't continue past that date if no decision's been made is because there's no award in place for it to continue. If the decision was then not to award you PIP you would then end up owing them money.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Surely the form will be the AR1 Renewal/review form? That tells them if anything has changed or not? Which presumably will result in another F2F (@ my home ) or a paper assessment as nothing will have changed ,no new evidence Nada
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    No, i'm afraid not. The forms will be the PIP2 ones because you were awarded by a Tribunal and not by DWP. This means that there will be no review, it's a new claim. Even though it really makes no difference because all claims she be classed as a new claim by all claimants.

    Expect a face to face assessment because most have them.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    What dumb ars*d system they have Oh well it will be another 2 years with no payments  then  and MR & Tribunal Rinse and repeat wonderful
  • chellywchellyw Member Posts: 2 Listener
    I was on DLA high rate for both components, early this year I got the dreaded letter to say my DLA was stopping and that I could apply for PIP, I had already got letters from doctors and consultants as I knew that this was going to happen sooner or later, after I got the forms through, I was given further letters of support from my GP and a new consultant I had been seeing, in one of the letters a consultant wrote that he felt a face to face should not really be required and also in his opinion would cause stress that would impact my condition adversely. I received a letter saying that they had got all that they needed to process my claim, so I took that, as I would not need to be seen. I was not called for a face to face and I was awarded both care and mobility at the enhanced rate, it states on the letter, I have been awarded this for an ongoing period? Most of people’s letters have a date when their award will be reassessed, has anyone else come across this?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    @chellyw great news! ongoing period means 10 years. This is the maximum award length that anyone can have for PIP.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Made some enquiries regarding the blue badge and travel pass, both are non-starters as they would expire on the date my current PIP award ends and by the time that they processed the applications, some time in January would mean they would be of no or little benefit and the bb would cost me £10 for nothing , so all i can do for now is claim the 50% refund on the road tax for the duration of my award
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Community champion Posts: 5,256 Disability Gamechanger
    PIP is not needed to qualify for a BB. You can apply directly to your local council with supporting evidence. If unsuccesful your £10 will be refunded
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    The only proof i have is from the PIP award i have nothing new, though i could get my GP to draft me a letter that outlines the condition OA stage 4 of the knee , and can only walk up to 50 mtrs with the aid of a offloading knee brace
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    I'm going to get a copy of the consultants letter from my GP and ask if he will write a letter that i will use also for my PIP application that basically states that my condition hasn't improved and is not likely to unless i have TKR surgery Then fingers crossed the clowncil will use common sense and either accept i meet the criteria for the bb  based on the automatic Qualifier (PIP) and the additional evidence on the discretionary side  and with or without  an assessment by a OT issues it for the standard 3 yrs
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    I presume you are aware that it’s possible to challenge the length of a PIP award without putting the rates awarded at issue.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    My CAB adviser/rep @ the tribunal thought that the judge had a fair point when he made a explanation as to why they only made a 2-year award, although he may not agree with it , that reason being that i may between present and when the 2 yrs ends have surgical intervention, to argue that would be a UTT case presumably as there is unlikely any Error of law? or is there another way of doing it? baring in mind the current award ends during the 2nd wk of Feb 2020
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    You can't appeal the decision without the error of law being found. For this you'll need to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings within 1 month of the date of the Tribunal decision.

    As you're award ends the 2nd week of Feb, have you been sent more PIP2 forms?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Hi,Re appealing the duration of the award , error of law, i would doubt that there will be one, the tribunal was straight forwards no questions asked because it was clear to them i met the criteria for standard mobility (which is what i had claimed PIP for) Any SOR ect would probably take months to get it, (it did last time) I have Phoned PIP after i got a letter from them saying that if i still need help, after the end date of the current claim i would need to make a new claim for pip, So waiting for the PIP2 I think so matter what i do, i will be without PIP payments for several months maybe another 18mths without, if this claim is anything to go by, the wait for the farce PIP assessment at home, then the MR farce And a 12mth+wait for the tribunal
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    This is a likely pretty straightforward error of law. You have stated yourself that you will not be having surgery and there is lots of case law to state that a decision can not be based on speculation as to the possibility of something happening. In the past award lengths have been limited for all sorts of bizarre reasons such as the possibility of new treatments; cures and, as in your case, the possibility of something happening that you’ve already says won’t. Every one of those bizarre arguments has been picked off at UT as hopelessly erroneous in law.

    You will need the SOR and ROP in order to proceed as you must have those to apply to UT. They may even show other errors of law. You can list those too but it’s unlikely they will be stronger than this rather basic error. 
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    I'm out of time  to request the SOR now as it will be over the 28 days period,that you have to request them, And in any case although it would possibly lead to a longer award being made the DWP could well counter this by calling for a review and assessment,
    But i suppose the question is this how long realistically could i expect to be awarded PIP for? 3yrs perhaps? Whilst imo i think that a 3 year award would have been far better  than to create the situation a 2-year award has,
    Got my PIP2 today no return pre paid envelope supplied and the dead line is 28 of this month, Can't see that happening
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    tomm said:

    Got my PIP2 today no return pre paid envelope supplied and the dead line is 28 of this month, Can't see that happening
    Ring to request an extension to return the form.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    Thank's i did this earlier they only gave 2 weeks so middle of Jan i think and they are going to send an envelope to but their book into (what a waste of paper)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    A request for an SOR/ROP can go in outside of 28 days. You’ve pretty much made your case for lateness within this thread and the strength of a seemingly obvious error will always influence the likelihood of their allowing a late application. Few deadlines are rigid with HMCTS.

    As regards award length you’re overthinking it. Award length is not a thing they decide in isolation. You have as much input into that as you do into any other aspect of your claim. So, use the extra information section to, amongst other things, make an explicit request for the award length you think appropriate. You can refer to the HCP assessors guidance and then make your case.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    I take it that you mean, The Orthopaedic surgeon's assessment letter dated 2018 which probably enabled the tribunal to reach their decision as in awarded 10 points? Because they never said or asked me anything , they had arrived at their decision based on the paper evidence and my Perception history for the painkillers (Tramadol)?
    Well i guess  there is no harm in requesting the SOR/ROP Whilst i re apply for PIP again, could this new application interfere with any new decision ?  As for length of the award IMO i would have awarded 4yrs as a minimum because the condition will not improve unless i elect to have TKR surgery, and even then there are no guarantees that i would have full mobility after, and due to my age  i have no intentions of having surgery at this point in time because i don't want to have to repeat the operation in 10-15yrs time,
    So I wouldn't be appealing the actual  mobility award (10points)  but the fixed term length of that award only ?

  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Well Request for ROP/SOR sent in to the Tribunal service,was only 5 days outside the normal time limit, Managed to get a GP Appointment early in Jan and also with the CAB adviser who has been dealing with my case , so should just be able to submit the completed PIP2 booklet and hopefully have a letter from my GP which basically confirms that there has been no major worsening of my condition, and that it is unlikely never going to improve by its self, and that i just like the previous time would require a home assessment  due to the same reasons set out in his previous letter to ATOS
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    A new claim will produce the same or worse outcome if you proceed in the same way as your last one. Best advice there is to get face to face advice on the merits. The practical impact of a new claim is that it expires your previous claim the day before. Multiple claims are generally not a great idea as they broadcast that you’ve not got advice and make it look like you’re throwing mud at the wall in the hope that eventually something sticks. 
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    Well if the DWP used common sense i shouldn't need to make a new claim, but be able to renew it, but from what i can gather this is normal when the tribunal makes an award with an end date i.e. 2-3 year award, i anticipate they will put me through the farce they regard as an assessment  which will take months, because it will be at my home, then they will score me zero points like they did the last time, and the mr won't change their decision, and nearly 2 years later a tribunal again, sigh,
    The CAB adviser thinks there is a realistic chance that they will treat it as a renewal and apply common sense and just make an award of 10 points and the claim will continue, he has more faith than i do, As for getting a better result, do you mean length of award ? As i doubt that i would meet the criteria for enhanced mobility or any of the D/L descriptors
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    Not sure what the CAB adviser meant by "treated as a renewal"

    A renewal and a new claim are both the same, the only difference between the 2 is that a renewal is a shorter form. The process is exactly the same, other than that. If it was a renewal and a decision wasn't made by the time your award is due to end then it would end anyway because there would be no award in place for it to continue.

    Regardless of all that ALL claims should be treated as a new claim by all claimants, even if it's a renewal. The form should always be filled out with as much information as possible about how your conditions affect you, then adding a couple of real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    What Mike meant by a new claim expires your previous claim the day before is that if you challenged your current decision once you receive the SOR/ROP then any new decision made on your new claim will overrule that decision.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    Would this apply if the new claim was decided before a tribunal hearing ,?  ie, say they disallow the new claim before any challenge is determined by the tribunal, ? As for the current claim ending that will happen well before any new claim or tribunal decision, current award ends 1st week in Feb, they won't process my PIP application with in 3 weeks unless they decide to continue the existing award, which if they do, no point in challenging the tribunal decision, It's unlikely that i will even have the ROP/SOR before Christmas, the last request on an earlier claim took them around 3 months iicr 

    So what you are saying is that if the DWP make a negative decision, before any challenge is heard  by a tribunal, the tribunals decision wouldn't supersede  the earlier DWP's decision on the new claim ? So it's either continue with the new claim or challenge the existing award duration, but not both ?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    tomm said:


    So what you are saying is that if the DWP make a negative decision, before any challenge is heard  by a tribunal, the tribunals decision wouldn't supersede  the earlier DWP's decision on the new claim ? So it's either continue with the new claim or challenge the existing award duration, but not both ?
    That's correct.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    No, what I am saying is that at present you have a claim which, were you to succeed at UT and then go back to FTT and win, could be awarded for any period. The moment you make a new claim then your original claim (if it were to be awarded) could only be awarded up to the day before the date of your second claim i.e. you’ve ended any possibility of a long award. Given that one of your main concerns here is award length then making a new claim immediately ends the possibility of, for example, a 10 year or ongoing award. 

    It absolutely isn’t a choice of one or the other but making a new claim at this stage over complicates a relatively simple matter. If you have already ordered the claim pack for a new claim then effectively you’ve already time limited your first claim.

    All that said, I remain concerned at the approach to this. Nothing you have said indicates you would approach a new claim by first of all recognising the weaknesses in your original claim and then doing the second claim differently. In such circumstances then, yes, all the things you anticipate will come to fruition but not just because the DWP and assessment providers have poor processes but also because doing the same thing the same way and expecting a different outcome contributes to that. Right now you urgently need face to face advice on your options and no-one on this site can really help you further as we’d need to see appeal papers and understand the case in order to make an informed judgement.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq a new claim as already been started and the PIP2 form was received on 6th December, according to a previous comment.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    Aye well. That’s the end of that then. There’s no point in an appeal on award length as it’s already time-limited. Then again, the point of a second claim proceeding on the sane basis as the first evades me. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    Then again, the point of a second claim proceeding on the sane basis as the first evades me. 
    I'm no expert by any means but hearing of so many stories of people that have to constantly take it to Tribunal, makes me wonder that each time they claim, are they proceeding in the same way they previously did. Surely this must be the reason why they end up at Tribunal again and again, am i right? Exactly the same as the work capability assessment. :|
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    Well all i can do is tell them how limited my mobility is, if they chose not to believe me and Dismiss the Surgeons report that says i need a TKR (OA doesn't get much worse than STAGE 4)  because i am no longer under his care, (because i would be seen quicker as a new patient should my knee suddenly worsen) still say none, what else can you do?

    The last assessment they commented on the pain medication not being strong enough or similar, they wrote stuff like answered the door  walked without pain, they of course fail to say that the distance i was observed to walk was under 10 mtrs in total about( 5 paces ) they LIE (ATOS)This is why my claim and many others fail at the assessment, but that is the purpose of these farces they call assessments This time around i can only add a gp's letter that basically explains my condition hasn't worsened and is unlikely to improve unless i elected to have surgery ,

    So in regard to this new claim, they can't be cancelled then , as for F2F advice ? Other than the CAB it doesn't exist in my local area, if it does, it is unlikely that i could see anyone until after Christmas and new year and the WRS Doesn't do reps at tribunals
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    Don't forget there's 10 daily living activities as well as the mobility ones.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Hi, Poppy, yeah i know, but i don't meet the criteria, as most 2 points for bathing, getting dressed, but it's being able to convince them, My cab adviser  has explored the daily living side, but thinks it would only complicate things, were as the mobility is straight towards and the severity of the O/A , Changes in the knee, hospital Surgeon's, assessment & report Should speak for its self backed by GP's letter and maybe a print out of the pain Med history and of course my explain of how it impacts my mobility on a day-to-day basis
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Just an update, put a new claim in for PIP, My GP has written a letter explaining why i wouldn't be able to attend the farce they consider to a medical assessment, thus requiring a HV , he has this time included details of all my conditions and why i wouldn't be able to use a walking stick with my right Hand  as well as a mechanically propelled wheelchair as well as how use of a wheelchair would not benefit my knee, ligaments & muscle wastage ( which isn't good for TKR recovery)
    So this letter should be adequate for both pip & ESA when the dreaded white envelope lands,
    On another note i heard back from the tribunal service regarding my statement of reasons request, specifically as to the reasons for the length of the award, they responded by saying that there are no reasons for the length of the award in the tribunal notes or decision notes,
    And therefore it is now impossible to recall the reason, then it says the tribunal cannot discount the possibility  it was a mistake & and or typo,
    it then says on the face of it the award may well be too short , refers to a page in the bundle which was older evidence from a MSKA at my local hospital,
    which says the knee requires a TKR Dated 2015  but i since then been referred to a  consultant Orthopaedic surgeon in 2016 who had more recent X-rays that showed a worsening  STAGE 4 OA , and the surgeon basically says in his report  that tkr surgery is the only option left, and due to my age etc he agrees with me that surgery is better delayed for as long as possible , given the difficulties with surgery, which for some reason they didn't point too,
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 7
    Just a further update, very bizarre too, Reading through the letter it would appear that the judge who made the decision has requested another judge correct his mistake,( a slip of the pen ) and  has CORRECTED that decision  and made a  revised decision  extending the current award by another 2 years I was unaware that they could correct mistakes without re hearing the case, although at the original hearing they made their decision on the paper bundle, just asking if the 10 points for mobility was acceptable?
    But I'm not complaining about it, glad that common sense is still used at times Question is How will the new claim affect it, Can i  just cancel this new claim, that i made as a consequence of the tribunal's error ?
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 7
    tomm said:
    Just a further update, very bizarre too, Reading through the letter it would appear that the judge who made the decision has requested another judge correct his mistake,( a slip of the pen ) and  has CORRECTED that decision  and made a  revised decision  extending the current award by another 2 years I was unaware that they could correct mistakes without re hearing the case, although at the original hearing they made their decision on the paper bundle, just asking if the 10 points for mobility was acceptable?
    But I'm not complaining about it, glad that common sense is still used at times Question is How will the new claim affect it, Can i  just cancel this new claim, that i made as a consequence of the tribunal's error ?
    Forgot to add this update is because i only today received notification from the tribunal service  regarding this correction of the earlier decision  made in November this is likely that the judge when awarding the 2-year period had intended  that i have a 2-year award run from that date, Whilst not taking into account that the claim was already nearly 2 years old, so he should have awarded 4 years in total, so now to talk to the DWP to ensure they spot this correction notice, and hopefully stop cancel, or put on hold  the new claim and allow the tribunals corrected  award to continue , my current PIP claim was due to end next week

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    A claim cannot be cancelled in the sense of it never having existed. 
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 10
    A claim cannot be cancelled in the sense of it never having existed. 

    So they will stop the new PIP Application progressing through the system as i already have an award (corrected award) ? What is the typical time frame from them receiving the tribunal decision (via e-mail) to it being uploaded onto their system so it can be processed and actioned ? My current claim ended today (pre correction) i have spoken to the DWP twice now, and they cannot see this corrected decision notice as yet the decision was made last week ?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    If you have registered a new claim then any award made in the original will terminate the day before the new date of claim. A decision would need to be made on the new claim. If that decision is the same as the tribunal award then all well and good. If not then in theory you could request a revision of any differing decision on the new claim. Sometimes this will happen without you requesting it. Other times you’re in for a battle.

    This is why the advice on here is so often to persist with your original claim rather than submit a new one which immediately makes the first one a closed period award.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    The new claim hasn't got to the assessment stage yet and i will argue that i made that claim in error, due to the tribunal's error slip of the pen which has now been corrected, and they received my new claim in December  my pip has remained in payment, and the dwp said that they once they have the corrected decision from the tribunal on their system will cancel the new claim, that is also the logical thing to do,
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    If it were UC you'd be stuffed. Any other benefit and in theory you can withdraw the claim at any point before a decision but with DLA/PIP et al the issue is that you've registered a date of claim and so whilst you can withdraw the claim it won't necessarily stop the tribunal award being for a closed period.

    Any argument as to why it was made or withdrawn is a moot point  The law isn't interested in why. It's only interested in whether there was a new claim or not.

    Ad already stated the second claim only creates an issue if it results in a different award.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    The corrected decision totals 4 years  2 of them which have already elapsed since i made the 1st claim,CAB doesn't think they would award anything longer at tribunal and there is always that risk they may make an adverse decision, For what i hear most Tribunal awards are for a Fixed period, unless it's obvious there is no chance of improvement because whatever problem they have is untreatable, this closed period shouldn't apply here because there has not been a new decision or FTT hearing only a correction made to that FTT decision and there has been no new decision made by the DWP any Assessment HV would take them  months
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 207 Courageous
    tomm said:
    this closed period shouldn't apply here because there has not been a new decision or FTT hearing only a correction made to that FTT decision and there has been no new decision made by the DWP any Assessment HV would take them  months
    The simple fact of lodging a new claim will mean that the existing award will only run until the date of the new claim being made. I have not heard of any mechanism being used by the DWP to allow a claimant the opportunity to withdraw it out of their system. Once it has been made, that is it! 
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 11
     Check out the link http://capita-pip.co.uk/en/faqs/withdrawing-or-cancelling.html And in any case that has not happened I made the new claim back in December the existing award was still in payment in Jan and as far as I'm aware still is or was until today until they apply the tribunal's correction to the fixed term, And the only reason i made a new claim was because the incorrect duration of the fixed term expired today, it would be madness and a waste of time and money to refuse to withdraw the new application that hasn't had any decision made to supersede the tribunal decision but i would fight tooth and nail  and refuse to undergo another farce ( assessment )

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    link doesn't work for me.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger

    As your current PIP award is due to end today, this is why your payments haven't yet stopped.


    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    link doesn't work for me.

    Try again now, fixed it
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 11

    As your current PIP award is due to end today, this is why your payments haven't yet stopped.


    That's my point here if the new claim I registered in December would cause the existing claim /award to end(closed period.) then i would not have been paid after that date, which is not correct, And the NEW claim HAS no decision  to supersede the existing award, As said i will be withdrawing the new claim  (DWP will likely do this anyway) And the existing corrected award will run till it's end date ,unless they decide to review it before then


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,403 Disability Gamechanger
    The new claim wouldn't have caused your existing award to end when they received the form. Payments will continue to the end date of that award, if no decision has been made, which it hasn't.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    You have always been able to withdraw a claim by simply asking to do so provided a determination has not been made. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1987/1968/regulation/5/made. It could not be any clearer. 

    However, that universe ended when Universal Credit came in and, in itself, it’s nothing to the point here. The poster can undoubtedly withdraw their claim. The question is whether that withdrawal ends a closed period for their original claim and puts back the full extent of the award. The answer, I believe, is that it does not.

    The Capita link adds nothing to this discussion. It merely states a vague and meaningless version of reg 5

    This decision at https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/caselaw/item/period-over-which-tribunal-has-jurisdiction-in-a-pip-appeal-where-a-subsequent-fresh-pip-claim-has-been-decided is conclusive on the matter. You pick up the phone then you have started a claim and established a closed period. 


  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 11
    1 I'm not yet on UC thank god, 2, this case law describes a different situation to mine The important difference

    where subsequent fresh claim has been decided

    The Fresh claim hasn't reached the assessment stage yet the DWP may not have even referred it to ATOS yet, The tribunal screwed up (slip of the pen) which has now been corrected  this upon reviewing it when i asked for the sor So IMO that Closed period wouldn't apply in my case mike, unless i had been assessed, and they had made a decision , Had i been given the correct end date of the award  2022 not 2020, i wouldn't have had any reason to make a fresh claim for pip, therefore i don't see why i should be made to suffer

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    You’ve perhaps not read the decision or taken the totality of it. You make the call then to all intents and purposes you’ve made a claim. Any earlier claim is then limited to a closed period. The UT decision is crystal clear on that. I’m not seeing any dysfunction between that and the case being described in this thread. 
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 11
    Well i will not submit to another farce whilst i have a 2 yr award  regardless of their bs rules, that will waste everyone time, and money (Their argument in that case law appears to be because the PIP2 wasn't completed and retuned in the time allowed ) and the claimant had not given a good reason, so they made a decision , to disallow the fresh PIP claim, this would override any Earlier decision  and the tribunal was a re hearing new decision)  my fresh claim has not been disallowed or assessed /determined so quite how that can limit something  that was already in force i don't understand it makes no sense
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 207 Courageous
    edited February 11
    As has been said a new claim has been made. What you have to consider is what would you want the DWP to do with it even if you attempt to cancel it?
    They have been asked to review your current award albeit that the current award was messed up by the Tribunal. I am very doubtful despite your argument that the DWP will simply tear up the new claim, alter their computer system and pretend that it never happened. The new claim will run it's course as your request to review the old claim.
    The DWP wouldn't want to know why you made it. I really don't see the issue. What presumably will happen is that the DWP will make a new determination based on the new claim whereupon the old claim will die. This happens all of the time when claimants report a change of circumstances - it is treated as a new claim. It could go in your favour with a new award greater than the current two years that are left on the old claim.
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 12
    Nothing at all rip it up shred it , because the fresh claim is not needed and was made resulting from the tribunals slip of the pen which has since been corrected  that award should stand  because NO new decision has been made the new claim is not required, and if they wish to waste their time ,mess me around and basically shaft me on the tribunals award they will have a fight on their hands  all the way, I will not submit to another farce because i don't need one( and the result would be the same regardless) i have an existing award, and will use that at another tribunal as reason for refusal

    You misunderstand no one has been asked to review my award, and i can withdraw the fresh claim at any point before a determination, then the new claim ceases to exist the tribunal award was FIXED therefore the DWP won't review it, A fresh claim would be needed if i wanted to continue to claim PIP, And i think you will find that the tribunal is higher up the food chain than the DWP As for getting a better award from the result of a F2F farce No chance  they lie that is what they are paid to do

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
    I’ve nothing further to add @skullcap. You can lead a horse to water and all that.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 3,704 Disability Gamechanger
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 963 Disability Gamechanger
    @tomm - as others have said I wonder if you might be getting confused over 'cancelling' a claim.

    You can cancel it at any time in the sense of asking DWP not to consider it any longer but what you can't cancel is the fact that it was made in the first place. It won't 'cease to exist' as you think.

    That said I have every sympathy with your situation...
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 12
    That's what is so dumb So i made a fresh claim which i no longer need or wish to continue with, stopping parking that fresh claim shouldn't be an issue,Why they could think it should be is beyond any logic As no determination has yet been made on that fresh claim, none exists ,so how can something none existent over ride a existing determination ?
    But if the backward DWP bs procedure wants to block a valid award made by a higher authority, i will take issue with that devoid of all common-sense outfit

    They can either park stop disregard the fresh claim or make a determination on paper using the evidence they have, that mirrors the tribunals corrected award or better ,

    otherwise, like i say i won't submit to another farce of an assessment and so bringing the next tribunal hearing closer than it would otherwise be, due to the DWP and ATOS wasting money and time
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 207 Courageous
    edited February 12
    Having the new claim determined means nothing at this stage. The only time it will matter is when it is issued it will automatically cease the previous Tribunal award.
    This situation happens regularly when a claim is thrown out by the First Tier Tribunal and a new claim is made. Then the claimant decides to take the failed decision to the Upper Tribunal which surprisingly decides to make an award. By making that new claim it has created a 'closed claim period'. What then has to happen is to fight for the correct decision on the second claim.
    The DWP are not bound to make a 'mirror' award. They can and do make awards that are higher/lower or not at all. The previous award has no real bearing on what may come of a second claim even if you use the same evidence and fill out the claim form exactly as the previous one. In fact no Case Manager at the DWP has to agree what another Case Manger could decide.
    You would be surprised how many people lodge new claims whilst going through the appeal process in respect of an earlier claim. All they are doing is creating work, stress and anxiety for themselves. 
    You should never put in a new claim until the previous claim has been done to death so to speak. That is where good quality advice and representation pays dividends.

  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 12
    This situation happens regularly when a claim is thrown out by the First Tier Tribunal and a new claim is made. Then the claimant decides to take the failed decision to the Upper Tribunal which surprisingly decides to make an award

    This is not the same situation at all, no new decision has been made by the tribunal or DWP, no new hearing only a correction of the original award, And the Fresh claim has not progressed to a stage where the DWP would be ready to make a determination, except in the event they had decided to do a paper based assessment and make an award, So at this point there is no new decision to supersede the existing now corrected award,I spoke with the DWP today And they now have the Corrected decision, and is with a decision maker, who as far as the notes on the system would suggest they will allow the tribunals award to continue, Even my cab adviser is of this opinion,or they will make their own award if it needed for procedural reasons and it will be the same rate for the same period they have no reason  for not doing this under the circumstances this isn't close to what was described in that case law



  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    edited February 12
    You should never put in a new claim until the previous claim has been done to death so to speak.
    In December, I received a letter from PIP explaining that my current award was due to end in FEB2020( yesterday ) I then enquired as to what options i had And the only one was if i wanted PIP i needed to make a new claim and apply again due to the award having an end date (fixed term) which i did,
    I then thought i would query the reasoning behind the length of the award, not the decision it's self , And whilst writing the SOR the judge realised that he may have made a mistake regarding the length of the award because he had intended i be given 2 yrs from that date, he failed to take into account that my claim had started some 18mths prior to that hearing, this was corrected by a district tribunal judge,
    SO i could not have done the claim any more to death as you say Also there was little point is appealing the tribunals decision, as it would have been unlikely to have resulted in a better award, i don't meet the criteria for that  and that is fairly obvious from the evidence  plus there is always the risk of losing the award too, not all tribunal panels are equal
    ,
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Just an update, Good news The DWP has accepted the Corrected Tribunal decision in full, So end date is Feb 2022,Got the updated PIP statement of entitlement letter today,As for the Blue badge, i'm going to allow the current application to run without using the extended PIP award as it would be tied to the end date of the pip award, and as they generally issue them for 3 yrs,i think i will try to get my £10 worth, gaining 12mths more blue badge
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Administrator Posts: 7,598 Scope community team
    Great news @tomm
    Community Partner

    Scope
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Great news @tomm
    Makes a change :D, I can get some more car tax refunded now as with the previous award they only paid up to the old end date, not sure if things will go as straightforward with the bluer badge app, as i don't want it linked to the pip award unless i have to do this, Just depends on if they want to accept the same medical evidence the tribunal accepted or not

  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Administrator Posts: 7,598 Scope community team
    Fingers crossed @tomm
    Community Partner

    Scope
  • tommtomm Member Posts: 220 Pioneering
    Well i'm already off to a good start, they have written to me requesting photo ID, which i though i had provided at their offices, And something about a pip award, looks like by using the old award letter as evidence to support a discretionary application, it has confused them, should have sent the Tribunals decision notice instead, They have a copy of the consultant surgeons report which formed the basis of the PIP claim, so if that evidence was sufficient for a tribunal then it should be more than enough for a blue badge( but that would require them to be using common sense)
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