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Pip review

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  • TardisTardis Posts: 211Member Pioneering
    No, because the evidence needed is related to function, not diagnosis.  Physio and OT reports would be invaluable for some, just as letters from CPNs, social workers, SENCOs etc can be useful if they give an indication of functional difficulties in line with the PIP activities.  A similar letter from a partner/carer is just another piece of evidence.  Why would you bother to lie and write the letter yourself when you already had the opportunity to put your own story down on the PIP2 form?   


  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Tardis said:
    No, because the evidence needed is related to function, not diagnosis.  Physio and OT reports would be invaluable for some, just as letters from CPNs, social workers, SENCOs etc can be useful if they give an indication of functional difficulties in line with the PIP activities.  A similar letter from a partner/carer is just another piece of evidence.  Why would you bother to lie and write the letter yourself when you already had the opportunity to put your own story down on the PIP2 form?   


    Yes it is just another piece of evidence. What I was questioning was the statement that it would carry more weight than a report from a GP or other medical body.

    Hey, there are some that would lie, in fact they would see it as just the normal way that things work in life. I have come across thousands of such individuals during my time whilst working for the government.
    Why? because of the above statement that such a letter carries more weight to convince the case manager to award a benefit.

    PIP2? It is accepted that the majority of these forms are not completed correctly. To suggest that most people understand what is required of that form is wrong. Many just tick boxes, some, probably most, fill it with irrelevant information. The better completed ones are completed by those that understand what is required and how the system works. many have taken independent advice before putting pen to paper. Many don't bother asking for help, they simply can't be bothered.

    To be honest for the three PIP review forms that I completed none was because of help or advice offered. Yes I completed all three with little or irrelevant information and I'm fairly intelligent.
    In fact in the past 5 years of my PIP experience I have had to muddle through everything knowing absolutely little of PIP and treating PIP as if it was DLA.

    It's generally at the point when they get the assessor's report and decision notice that they start to think that they have to do something. Some will go running to the CAB or the likes, others will muddle through thinking how/what can they do to get the award they think they should have. Some will again send in irrelevant evidence for the MR. It gets serious when the MR comes back - no change. Frustration and anger sets in to the point that some will do anything at this stage.

    Hearing that a letter from a friend/relative/partner weighs more than medical reports they set about having such a letter drafted. It is at that point that desperation sets in and lies start to come to the front for some claimants who probably see it as no other alternative.

  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Pioneering
    I thought the face to face assessments were supposed to be independent assessments. What a load of phooey! Non of the suggested pieces of suggested evidence would stand up in a court as more than merely circumstantial or opinion. My GP would have less reason to lie to dwp than a partner so in that sense a GPs report might be seen as more important also a GP has years of training etc. But I hardly visit the GP I don't have contact with lots of different medical specialities. The only person who sees and knows how ii am affected everyday is my husband.
  • tru88letru88le Posts: 31Member Connected
    In reality fortunately the tribunal judges acknowledge that the person claiiming pip has only 'circumstantial' evidence to provide.
    What else can you say other than how things are?
    I suppose its a question of is what the claimant says backed up by whatever health professionals are given to contact.
    Its wrong to assume people are inherently lying without such back up but that is how it is anything you say must have some substance elsewhere to back it up.
    Some that is, not all of it.
    When you give a reason to a question they either believe it or dont. 
    In my case the judge deemed the 'bald facts' acceptable and understood that facts are all we can give but we cant always prove them evidentially.
    For example someone being unsafe to cook hav i ng previously caused a minor fire is admissable without a fire brigade statement of fact or images of the damage which could be from any fire etc.
    Give us a break everything else in the world where people make a written statement is just as prone to being inaccurate as a pip claim. Every form has an element of trust on the applicant usually with a threat of prosecution if fraudulant.


  • tru88letru88le Posts: 31Member Connected
    Yadnad's valuable advice... not being nasty here but this persons PIP claim was refused and the information he gave you was just stats from the internet...
    He does say he got tghe facts from an online source.
    Sorry for stirring haha
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 858Member Pioneering
    @tru88le Congrats!!

    @sarah50 Please do go to tribunal. 71% of tribunal appeals are won by the claimant. I won mine 2 weeks ago.

    @Yadnad GP's often can't speak to how conditions affect the patient's function. Physios more so, OT's probably more. Psychiatrists? No idea. Social worker? Probably knows a lot. Counselors? Mine wrote a really great letter for me. Didn't matter tho, as the assessor didn't look at any of it. Neither did the DMs. I had written statements from a friend I've known for 9 years and from my partner (a rather ranty one, as he was at the assessment and then read the report - 11 months later and he's still fuming ;) ). However, both of them related how I function on good days and bad days, how my function has changed over time, etc. The tribunal clearly read them closely, and asked both of them a couple of questions (I had a posse with me at tribunal).

  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    sarah50 said:
    I thought the face to face assessments were supposed to be independent assessments. What a load of phooey! Non of the suggested pieces of suggested evidence would stand up in a court as more than merely circumstantial or opinion. My GP would have less reason to lie to dwp than a partner so in that sense a GPs report might be seen as more important also a GP has years of training etc. But I hardly visit the GP I don't have contact with lots of different medical specialities. The only person who sees and knows how ii am affected everyday is my husband.
    .........as do my grown up children and of course my wife who has to look after me.

    I have never considered for a moment that letters from all three would be that important so as to trump medical reports etc.

    Mind you I suppose if I asked them nicely they would all write a damning report each pointing out that I am one step away from the cemetery!
  • TardisTardis Posts: 211Member Pioneering
    Their letters would not trump medical reports.  And being one step away from the graveyard isn't technically a PIP activity.  The evidence you need is about how you function in respect of the various PIP activities.  Whoever supplies it.  If your wife wrote a letter which just said you were falling apart and one step from heading downstairs, it would be no more useful than one from the GP who simply listed your diagnoses and the date (s)he last saw you.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Tardis said:
    Their letters would not trump medical reports.  And being one step away from the graveyard isn't technically a PIP activity.  The evidence you need is about how you function in respect of the various PIP activities.  Whoever supplies it.  If your wife wrote a letter which just said you were falling apart and one step from heading downstairs, it would be no more useful than one from the GP who simply listed your diagnoses and the date (s)he last saw you.
    Yes of course they could write about what the impact was.
    But you do have to question who, your GP or wife is more likely to tell the truth in a letter.

    And as for what was said earlier that such a letter carried more weight than a report from the GP is still in my opinion wrong.

    Personally I would never put my family in a position that they felt pressured to produce such a report for me. Obviously they would tell the truth but behind that they would be thinking 'what does dad want and what would help him get an award?'

  • TardisTardis Posts: 211Member Pioneering
    No, a recent GP's letter which described your functional limitations well would be worth sending.  The more usual variety, which just lists diagnoses would not be as useful as a letter from a carer who understands your needs and limitations well and can put that across in a letter.  Do your family provide regular care for you (as regards PIP activities)?  If so, they would be able to describe that.  If they don't, then you are probably correct; their letters are not likely to be particularly relevant.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    I don't have any recent GP letter - all of my evidence goes back to 2011 & 2012 which the DWP say is more than two years old and now not relevant,

    No one other than my wife provides any form of care, I try to be as independent as I can.

    As for my issues and impact they have not improved since the first assessment in 2013 when the MR changed the award from 0 points to enhanced care & mobility. They did this again in 2015 - 0 points to enhanced for both at MR stage. The evidence I mentioned above was used for both. 
    The MR in 2018 did not change from 0 points. as the evidence is too old.

    So as you say letters would be of no use as no one provides any serious level of care for me.
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Posts: 2,804Member Disability Gamechanger
    My g p provided a letter for me for thirty pounds.


    I am a fibrowarrior!
  • topshoestopshoes Posts: 443Member Pioneering
    edited November 2018
    i was told up my drs they do not do letters , maybe what part of uk you live
  • TardisTardis Posts: 211Member Pioneering
    edited November 2018
    Well, the date of the evidence matters if it is related to a condition which could change.  Your wife could write a letter, but it would need to be in her own words to be taken seriously.

    Have you spoken to anyone yet about appealing that PIP refusal?  You keep going over it on here, you must be dwelling on it a lot of the time.  You say you have decided to let it go, but your postings on here say otherwise. 

    The other thing that worries me, is why you don't have any recent evidence.  Surely you should be receiving ongoing medical care of some sort with all your problems?

    This was to Yadnad!
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    My g p provided a letter for me for thirty pounds.
    Mine would, but according to the poster earlier who said that a GP report is useless when compared to letter from a family member. Besides which I would have to go in and say to him
     'do you remember the 3 page report you did in 2012 outlining all of my difficulties, why they were caused and how I am coping with them and referring to all of the Social Services/hospital assessments/psychiatrist reports as well as the two days of tests that I had at the memory clinic that resulted in the 7 page report of their findings - well do you think that you could retype it to make it a more up to date one?'

    To be honest I haven't got the guts to ask that of him - the guy is already on his knees with his workload.

    And none of this would change the 3 year awards that I kept getting - and the thought of having to go to the GP every 4/5 years for further updated reports
    I'm 71 in under 6 months - the thought of all of this until I die.
  • TardisTardis Posts: 211Member Pioneering
    Our GP doesn't charge for letters.  It very much depends where you are.
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Posts: 2,804Member Disability Gamechanger
    I'm 50 shortly with life long conditions, and I don't want to be so poor I don't know if I can afford to look after myself because I can't work full time. This is a never ending debate


    I am a fibrowarrior!
  • topshoestopshoes Posts: 443Member Pioneering
    edited November 2018
    you are still  a young woman @debbiedo49 ;  x
  • Laura99Laura99 Posts: 62Member Courageous
    Heavens. For my own PIP appeal, I wrote a submission, which is encouraged by the DWP.  Now, if they look at submissions written by claimants they will surely give weight to submissions from husbands or wives. Who knows how a condition affects a claimant better than the claimant him/herself? Their partner, who daily sees the struggles the condition places on the claimant. It seems like a better idea than a letter from a GP, who does not live with you, after all. At least, mine doesn't. I think that the person who knows how your condition affects you most should write a submission. It ought to help, and I do not know why any suggestions of fraud have been made here. That is terribly unhelpful.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited November 2018
    Fraud was mentioned by me as a possibility, not a certainty, that some letters written by a close relative could and I say could be subject to exaggeration to improve the chances of an award. This came about when it was said that a letter from a husband/wife would weigh more in evidence terms than any letter from a GP.
    This is a personal opinion that if I was the case manager any such letter I would always treat them as suspect until proven otherwise.

    I would say that the vast majority of such letters are genuine, but the system as I see it could be abused.

    I have already said elsewhere that I would never ask any family member to write any such letter as I know they would do it honestly but there would also be the thought that 'if I added a bit here and a bit there' it would give the claimant a better chance.

    This thread deteriorated to this argument only because of one poster that implied that the 'best' evidence is a letter from a family member - the DWP will take more notice of it than they would of a letter from an independent medical professional.

    Finally if such a letter is being considered then go ahead, but please try to obtain independent evidence to support whatever is said in it.
  • Laura99Laura99 Posts: 62Member Courageous
    Yadnad, I imagine that the majority of people do not have any independent evidence. That is the trouble. As we all know, the Assessors are extremely fraudulent in their written reports. Their remit is to save money for the DWP - it is as simple as that. I have lost count of the number of times I have read on this forum that the Assessors' reports are a pack of lies. My own one was. Although the vast majority of people do not understand that PIP is awarded based on how conditions affect the claimant, the DWP fail to make this clear in any way.

    I did seek help (and got a doctor's letter, which was free) for the Tribunal. My own submission was eventually written after a good deal of searching online for assistance. 

    I think that the most likely person to write a fraudulent piece of evidence is the claimant him/herself, not their nearest and dearest, but I do not suggest for a moment that most people do this. I do believe that most people don't write fraudulent evidence.

    However, by the time we reach the stage of going to a Tribunal, we are much more savvy regarding what the DWP require, so we (ought to) make sure that the evidence they receive does, in fact, relate to how our conditions affect us on a daily basis.

    I am not suggesting fraud here on the part of claimants. If we are going to talk about fraud, we should be looking at those hundreds of thousands of Face-to-Face Assessments which have caused untold distress to so many, including me.
  • TardisTardis Posts: 211Member Pioneering
    I also doubt that many people write fraudulent claims.  I think there are many people who underplay their difficulties, thinking that their condition(s) should make it obvious what their limitations are.  I got some good advice years ago when filling out a child DLA claim, which was to assume the person reading it knew nothing at all and explain everything, in detail, repeatedly if necessary.  
  • Laura99Laura99 Posts: 62Member Courageous
    Tardis said:
    I also doubt that many people write fraudulent claims.  I think there are many people who underplay their difficulties, thinking that their condition(s) should make it obvious what their limitations are.  I got some good advice years ago when filling out a child DLA claim, which was to assume the person reading it knew nothing at all and explain everything, in detail, repeatedly if necessary.  
    Now that makes a good deal of sense, Tardis. 

    In fact, this brings into sharp focus the fact that parents have to complete forms for their children when the children are claimants. Obviously the DWP are not expecting anyone other than parents to do this. Presumably the DWP are also not expecting parents to make fraudulent claims. One would hope not.
  • jasmanjasman Posts: 5Member Listener
    i waited in for a pip review they was to come to my home, they never turned up.that is twice now. i phoned them and they said we will look in to it. what a joke
  • susankaysusankay Posts: 19Member Connected
    Finally had a text to phone and make an appointment for f2f. Appointment for 20th November. Just want to get it out of the way. 
  • lexxus16lexxus16 Posts: 11Member Connected
    edited March 9
    There are some real self-righteous, nasty, narcissistic, awful people on this thread and throughout this forum! And it seems to be the same person and people that pop up every time! Not just on here, on MoneySavingForum and other sites also. "Know it alls" that no matter what you say, they have to have the last word, and be negative putting people down with every word they say, because they think they are the "be all and end all" when it comes to state benefits! I'm waiting for the day any one of you approach me with that same BS - attacking an innocent poster, bringing up their personal business/details referring to the fact they were turned down, and using it to be spiteful, yet was you there in the room when he/she was being assessed?!? Do you know him/her personally to make that assumption as to why they was declined? 

    Making indirect b****y comments that they don't have a right to comment or give advice because they were turned down, how dare you! Completely shocking how low people will stoop when no one agrees with them and their attempt at shutting the person down fails! So does that mean Yadnad was lying then? He/she is a fraud? Does it apply to every other innocent person turned down for PIP based on lies...!???!? I don't care that this thread is nearly 5 months old, the same person keeps going round the internet on these forums attacking people, being negative with every word they say, shutting them down like she has a God given right to do so. You're not giving advice, you're being bi***y, and deliberately trying to break people's spirits when they are confident or hopeful about something, something you have no jurisdiction or inside knowledge over, nor any right to give your two pence worth of an attempt of an opinion/advice. 

    I'm more annoyed that the moderators on this site keep allowing her to get away with it, and the abuse to continue, yet on previous posts have stated not to make personal digs at other site users. JO2907 and Yadnad, I hope this hasn't put a dampner on your spirits using this site.
  • lexxus16lexxus16 Posts: 11Member Connected
    Acting like she's been sent personally by the DWP and Atossers to give insight.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    lexxus16 said:
    Acting like she's been sent personally by the DWP and Atossers to give insight.
    Zero point in reactivating old threads with derogatory swearing comments 
  • lexxus16lexxus16 Posts: 11Member Connected
    edited March 10
    ilovecats said:
    lexxus16 said:
    Acting like she's been sent personally by the DWP and Atossers to give insight.
    Zero point in reactivating old threads with derogatory swearing comments 
     ilovecats, not at any point have I sworn at anyone - I blocked out anything that was expletive, therefore not being derogatory, and I haven't used any derogatory words towards anyone. I simply defended 2 other uses on here that were being attacked by a serial site abuser, that frequents other forums on the internet bullying people. It is uncomfortable to sit and watch, and I am not a shrinking violet, I will speak where necessary and say what I have to say. I do not like bullies, or injustice. It is not an ancient thread, it was done in October which was around 20 weeks ago, not long at all. And even if it is old, people will still come on here and see the abuse/attacks on other site users, for which we are entitled to step in and say what we feel. We frequent the site too, so have just as much right as the next person to give our opinion.

    There are no rules for commenting on old threads, so I dnt know why you're making it an issue. I didn't call anyone a "b***h, I said she was being "b***hy* in her approach to the said user she was being spiteful towards by bringing up his/her personal business and using it against them, taking it upon herself to state he/she didn't have a right to an opinion because he/she was turned down for PIP, that is SELF-RIGHTEOUS and bit**y. How people can just sit back and accept that as normal shows the double standards on this site. I'm not going to sit back and see anyone unecessarily attacked, if the site mods won't say anything, then I will. I'm not rude at all, you've seen my comments on a previous post you commented on, and I was nothing but polite to you, as against the treatment you received.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,246Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    As a community we are here to help and support people when they are vunerable and in need of some guidance. There are terms and conditions that should be adhered to and if not then there is the option of flagging that post to the Scope team
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • lexxus16lexxus16 Posts: 11Member Connected
    As a community we are here to help and support people when they are vunerable and in need of some guidance. There are terms and conditions that should be adhered to and if not then there is the option of flagging that post to the Scope team
    I agree, and I understand thank-you. 
  • haveacigarhaveacigar Posts: 14Member Connected
    lexxus16 said:
    There are some real self-righteous, nasty, narcissistic, awful people on this thread and throughout this forum! And it seems to be the same person and people that pop up every time! Not just on here, on MoneySavingForum and other sites also. "Know it alls" that no matter what you say, they have to have the last word, and be negative putting people down with every word they say, because they think they are the "be all and end all" when it comes to state benefits! I'm waiting for the day any one of you approach me with that same BS - attacking an innocent poster, bringing up their personal business/details referring to the fact they were turned down, and using it to be spiteful, yet was you there in the room when he/she was being assessed?!? Do you know him/her personally to make that assumption as to why they was declined? 

    Making indirect b****y comments that they don't have a right to comment or give advice because they were turned down, how dare you! Completely shocking how low people will stoop when no one agrees with them and their attempt at shutting the person down fails! So does that mean Yadnad was lying then? He/she is a fraud? Does it apply to every other innocent person turned down for PIP based on lies...!???!? I don't care that this thread is nearly 5 months old, the same person keeps going round the internet on these forums attacking people, being negative with every word they say, shutting them down like she has a God given right to do so. You're not giving advice, you're being bi***y, and deliberately trying to break people's spirits when they are confident or hopeful about something, something you have no jurisdiction or inside knowledge over, nor any right to give your two pence worth of an attempt of an opinion/advice. 

    I'm more annoyed that the moderators on this site keep allowing her to get away with it, and the abuse to continue, yet on previous posts have stated not to make personal digs at other site users. JO2907 and Yadnad, I hope this hasn't put a dampner on your spirits using this site.
    Think a lot of us are starting to show signs of this, some more than others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_addiction_disorder
  • Sam_ScopeSam_Scope Posts: 7,477Administrator Scope community team
    Hi @lexxus16
    I am sorry to hear you are unhappy, but I can't seem to see which posts or member you are referring to? 
    If you feel a member or a post is breaking our guidelines, then please press the flag button under the post and we will deal with it.
    If you'd like to discuss this further then please email us on [email protected]
    Scope
    Senior online community officer
  • lexxus16lexxus16 Posts: 11Member Connected
    Sam_Scope said:
    Hi @lexxus16
    I am sorry to hear you are unhappy, but I can't seem to see which posts or member you are referring to? 
    If you feel a member or a post is breaking our guidelines, then please press the flag button under the post and we will deal with it.
    If you'd like to discuss this further then please email us on [email protected]
    Hi Sam, she has attempted to delete what she said, so you can no longer see it, and it then looks like I am a crazy person talking the most crap about something that doesn't exist, but I move very quickly and suspected this would be the case, so took screenshots. I will attach in an email to you. Thank-you for your message, much appreciated. 
  • lexxus16lexxus16 Posts: 11Member Connected
    Sam_Scope said:
    Hi @lexxus16
    I am sorry to hear you are unhappy, but I can't seem to see which posts or member you are referring to? 
    If you feel a member or a post is breaking our guidelines, then please press the flag button under the post and we will deal with it.
    If you'd like to discuss this further then please email us on [email protected]
    As I said I would, I sent you an email a few days back, which has gone unanswered - please can I have a reply to acknowledge receipt, and how mods plan to deal with the issue I pertained to. Can someone please respond, thank-you.
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