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PIP Question - Dressing & Undressing (Prosthesis)

Jim77Jim77 Posts: 4Member Listener
edited October 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hello all, thanks for all the great content on this forum it has been very helpful to me and to others to whom I have recommended it.

I am an amputee (leg) and so use a prosthesis and at time crutches.

I recently got a PIP assessment and got awarded 7 points for Daily Living.

I got awarded 0 points for the "dressing and undressing" activity.

I had thought I would be awarded 2 points for this based on "needing and aid or appliance to dress or undress".

All definitions I have read have indicated that a prosthesis is classed as an aid or appliance.

It is quite literally physically impossible for me to put on trousers without first having my prosthesis on and I feel I described this quite well on the form.

This makes me ask the question: Is a leg prosthesis definitely considered an aid/appliance with regards the question "Dressing & Undressing"? I know it is not mentioned in the examples in that question but in every definition I have found in official government papers it says a prosthesis most definitely is classes as an aid/appliance.

Apologies in advance if the above is badly worded or unclear.

Any help or thoughts greatly appreciated.

Jim



Replies

  • mehrfarbigmehrfarbig Posts: 33Member Connected
    It is classed as an aid or appliance if you need it for dressing IF you couldn't dress at all without it...if you weren't wearing it could you dress yourself? If not, why not? 

    They could say that your prosthesis isn't helping you dress at all as you don't need it to dress yourself.

    Another thing to consider is do you have to wear certain types of clothes to accommodate your prosthesis? 

    If you feel you explained all this you'll have to do an MR and if that fails a tribunal.
    Sarah
  • Jim77Jim77 Posts: 4Member Listener
    Thank you for replying Sarah!

    Yes it is physically impossible to put trousers on before the prosthesis for two reason: 1) I need to attach it to my upper leg, if I put trousers on first I would be unable to do this. 2) After putting trousers on  my lower body, I must stand up to pull them to waist height and fasten the button. The only way I can rise from a seated position is with the prosthesis on i.e. I cannot rise from seated on one leg only (I imagine few, if any, able bodied people could do this either). The only other way I could rise without the prosthesis is with a crutch, which itself is also classed as an aid. This still leaves a scenario in which I cannot then attach my prosthesis.  It is literally a physical impossibility to attach the prosthesis whilst wearing a pair of trousers.

    The Mandatory Reconsideration was rejected and return in amazingly fast time. The reason they gave on the rejection letter would indicate that they did not even take into account the facts I  had listed on my letter. In fact their reason for rejecting the MR was literally a cut and paste of the EXACT text from the original decision letter.

    I plan on taking this to tribunal.

    Thanks again for your help.

    Jim
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    This reminds me of the lad who had both legs amputated who walked across a football pitch being televised. It came to the attention of the DWP who re-assessed his walking ability and gave him nothing for mobility.

    As for getting dressed etc I once knew a very capable fellow who had stumps for both arms and legs due to a birth defect. It was amazing watching him get dressed after putting on his 'false legs' . His disabilities have never affected his outlook on life and now is a well known and respected professional.
  • Jim77Jim77 Posts: 4Member Listener
    edited October 2018
    Yadnad said:
    This reminds me of the lad who had both legs amputated who walked across a football pitch being televised. It came to the attention of the DWP who re-assessed his walking ability and gave him nothing for mobility.

    As for getting dressed etc I once knew a very capable fellow who had stumps for both arms and legs due to a birth defect. It was amazing watching him get dressed after putting on his 'false legs' . His disabilities have never affected his outlook on life and now is a well known and respected professional.
    People like that are an inspiration to us all. Love hearing stories like this.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,249Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Jim

    First can I ask what you received the 7 points for ?

    i don't want to sound harsh or uncaring but how would you manage if your prosthesis broke or got damaged ?

    From a DM's point of view, you could lie on a bed to pull up your trousers. Even though it is neccessary to fit your  prosthesis before putting on your trousers for the reasons you state, you could still dress if you could not for some reason wear your leg
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • Jim77Jim77 Posts: 4Member Listener
    Hi CockneyRebel

    Not at all, you do not come across as either of those things and that is a valid point. Thanks for adding to this and bringing in possible objections the DM may have.

    The prosthesis is part of my daily life and it is my understanding that the the "descriptors"  must apply on at least 50% of days. On a normal day and the vast majority of days I use my prosthesis (in fact there is only one time in the past 8 years or so that I didn't and that was due to a fall that injured my leg), I am fortunate enough that I have never had to do without it, mainly down to strictly adhering to my service and review appointments with the prosthesis technician.

    With the above in mind I think scenarios like that you have suggested aren't really applicable i.e. what would I do if my prosthesis was broke. That is not a normal or every day scenario and the question relates to everyday living. The every day scenario is my waking up, prepping my leg and putting on the prosthesis before dressing. I absolutely get your point though and I am not making light of it.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, I absolutely see your point and it is some food for thought for when I am filling in the appeals form. I will update this thread after the hearing (this may be some months away) as the info could be useful to someone in a similar situation. I suppose the outcome of that will (hopefully) shed some light on how this particular scenario is interpreted.

    Jim
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Jim77 said:
    Yadnad said:
    This reminds me of the lad who had both legs amputated who walked across a football pitch being televised. It came to the attention of the DWP who re-assessed his walking ability and gave him nothing for mobility.

    As for getting dressed etc I once knew a very capable fellow who had stumps for both arms and legs due to a birth defect. It was amazing watching him get dressed after putting on his 'false legs' . His disabilities have never affected his outlook on life and now is a well known and respected professional.
    People like that are an inspiration to us all. Love hearing stories like this.
    Yes very inspirational. We first met when we were in our early 20's and had some very interesting times together as a bunch of testosterone filled guys. The five of us went away for a weekend once and after sneaking into his room in the night we put his legs by the window a fair distance from his bed! Looking back not a nice thing to do but he always saw the funny side of everything - thinking legs? window open? nay he didn't fall out did he?

  • mehrfarbigmehrfarbig Posts: 33Member Connected
    edited October 2018
    From what you've said, from my knowledge and research over the years, your prosthesis wouldn't be classed as being needed to dress yourself if only reason you use it is so trousers fit whilst standing. You could of course say you need your prosthesis for mobility, and to get it on it has to go on before clothes, otherwise you'd need assistance to get your prosthesis on if your trousers went on first. 

    As anything regarding standing and moving around comes under the moving around section and trousers can be pulled up lying down. 

    How is your other leg? Could you lie on your back on your bed, without your prosthesis and pull trousers up? For example if your other leg has any kind of impairment you could say the prosthesis is an aid/appliance because your other leg can't lift your weight independently from a lying down position.

    It is very complicated, as I know under mobility they focus on double amputees more, as I guess they assume you can hop around, who knows. DWP never make much sense!

    I personally think it is ridiculous that it isnt automatically counted as aid/appliance, but DWP have very little common sense it seems. 
    Sarah
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi Jim....I hope you are doing good. Did you manage to take your case to the Tribunal?. If so what was the outcome please?.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 975Member Pioneering
    Jim77 said:
    Hello all, thanks for all the great content on this forum it has been very helpful to me and to others to whom I have recommended it.

    I am an amputee (leg) and so use a prosthesis and at time crutches.

    I recently got a PIP assessment and got awarded 7 points for Daily Living.

    I got awarded 0 points for the "dressing and undressing" activity.

    I had thought I would be awarded 2 points for this based on "needing and aid or appliance to dress or undress".

    All definitions I have read have indicated that a prosthesis is classed as an aid or appliance.

    It is quite literally physically impossible for me to put on trousers without first having my prosthesis on and I feel I described this quite well on the form.

    This makes me ask the question: Is a leg prosthesis definitely considered an aid/appliance with regards the question "Dressing & Undressing"? I know it is not mentioned in the examples in that question but in every definition I have found in official government papers it says a prosthesis most definitely is classes as an aid/appliance.

    Apologies in advance if the above is badly worded or unclear.

    Any help or thoughts greatly appreciated.

    Jim



    When I used to assess, I would give 2 points because logic would dictate that you cannot stand up to pull trouser up with only one leg. That’s what I was taught anyway. Not everyone gives the 2 points because there is some ambiguity about a bed being an aid, however, for most people it is not, near enough everyone sits down to dress, however as an amputee you don’t have a choice, hence aids / appliances & 2 points. 

    I’d appeal it.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    I have had the same situation, so planning for MR and would like to understand how to approach the MR..
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Stalin said:
    I have had the same situation, so planning for MR and would like to understand how to approach the MR..
    For this you'll need to put your request in writing within 1 month from the date of the decision. You should state where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    If you currently have an award do be aware that they look at the whole decision again and not just part of it.

    If there's any lies or contradictions in the report they won't be interested in any of those. All complaints should be sent to the health assessment providers.

    Only 19% of MR decisions change so you may have to take it to Tribunal. Good luck.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Thank you poppy. for your information. I have significant deformity with my right leg due to some deformed bone inside of my pelvis area and hence; i use a full length prosthesis for 17 hours a day to manage my daily activities with great support from my wife. I was getting daily living allowance at a standard rate before and it was stopped effective this month 20th as i lost 2 points for dressing and undressing based on the fact that i have  touched my left toes from a wheel chair with out wearing the prosthesis during a face to face consultation which happened 6 weeks ago. However; i am not in a position to stand on a single leg and perform dressing and undressing activities such as pulling of trousers or shorts up from lower body , inserting my deformed right leg in to those, then pulling further high up to waist and then fastening buttons. It demonstrated i need assistance in dressing and undressing and hence; should be allotted 2 points. So, i would like to take this back to DWP through MR and hence; need some good thoughts from all of you on better articulating this to DWP for MR...
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Also i need to consider assistance required for putting and taking of socks and shoes when seated with normal leg.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Dressing and undressing, the points are the same, whether you need to use and aid or require assistance for dressing/undressing your lower body. Of course you can only score points one for each activity.
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 773Member Pioneering
    @stalin - are you able to dress yourself by sitting down/ lying back on a bed? I ask this because, if I remember correctly, this doesn't count as using an aid....



  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    I can  dress my upper body by sitting down. The situation with my lower body is that my left  leg is normal and right leg is up to knee with complete deformity and just 3 figures. The shape of which is extremely bad as an internal bone hasn't not formed properly. To get dressed my lower body by sitting down( not using trousers as they need the prosthesis to be on and which is not treated  as an aid here ) , the problem is i need to stand up to pull trousers up to attach those to my right deformed leg and then carry them all the way up to my waist to fasten buttons. I can't stand with out assistance, so essentially i can't complete dressing or undressing by sitting down on my own. It's extremely difficult to manage dressing and undressing by lying back on bed as it won't allow to reach my left toes to in this position, DWP has removed 2 points  for dressing and undressing as i can reach my left toes in sitting position. Please advise
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 773Member Pioneering
    @stalin - I can only advise that you set out exactly what you've written - which is really comprehensive and explains what your problems are - on your MR.

    I imagine you might be asked how you get dressed on your own, so you might consider covering that?

    Good luck, in any event...
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Many thanks Cris for your quick response...I am also going to add to the above with the issues that i am facing in putting on taking off socks and shoes. It's extremely difficult to lift my left leg up to required height and complete wearing socks and shoe as i don't have right leg to lean on....So my wife does always assist me in dressing and undressing including putting and taking off socks and shoes...
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, i agree you should write what you've written above. Then add the examples of what would happen if you didn't have assistance.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Sure poppy...Potential examples in case of absence of assistance are..... 1/ I don’t have any body to grab the clothes to be worn from the wardrobe 2/ I end up with the same clothes as I am on so can’t manage my toilet and bathing needs 3/ Can’t go for any outing etc...Does these sufficient?
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Can I also send images of my disability, prosthesis when it’s in place etc to DWP along with MR. Please advise 
  • janer1967janer1967 Posts: 158Member Pioneering
    Hi @Jim77
    I am also an amputee and wanted to know if you would share some experience with me. I am struggling getting used to my prosthetic I was doing ok walking with frame but I find the leg so heavy and restrictive.  I then lost the sight in one eye and had lots procedures and surgery and this affected my balance . I also have no feeling in my other leg so I can't feel uneven surfaces or see them . I stopped wearing my leg and now it doesn't fit so I am waiting for a new one being made. I just wondered how you got on initially getting used to it. I feel a failure when I see others who get on so well with it and wonder why I am having such a battle.
    Any advice would be appreciated 
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi I have been using my prosthesis for the past 38 years as I am disabled by birth. The pelvic bones in my right waist didn’t form properly so it resulted in to a deformed right limb in an awkward shape with an weaken bone and 3 fingers. This is up to knee level. It’s hardly having a thigh. The pelvic area is extremely weak so as the waist. Despite of all these DWP turned down 2 points for assistance required for my dressing needs.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi Jim...Just wear your prosthesis daily for some time at home and use it for internal mobility needs. It will certainly help you getting used to it. I do get lot of pain when i use it, but i don't have other choice so continue using it for a long time now. 
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi Poppy,,,This is my draft for MR for dressing and undressing. Appreciate your thoughts and ideas to make it more effective

    Daily living activities:

     

    1/ Dressing and Undressing 0 points allotted:  I was denied 0 points for this activity by saying that I was able to touch my toes and stand during the musculoskeletal examination. I could touch my left toes for about 3 seconds with significant pain in my curved spine and deformed right hip, pelvic area, thigh and leg as those got pulled down towards left side from their normal (right) side. I was able to do this activity because I was on a wheel chair with seat belt fasten and not wearing my prosthesis.

     

    I could hardly stand in the examination despite my wife assisted as I was on a single leg. I can’t understand on what basis Capita health care person reported that I could stand.

     

    When Capita assessed me in 2013, they have established that I do need assistance for this activity through out my life given nature of my life long disability. So, I don’t think DWP has adequately assessed the extent of my disability whilst awarding 0 points for this activity this time.

     

    1 A/ Dressing and Undressing – Can I manage this activity independently?  I can’t manage this activity independently either standing or sitting. Since I am missing my right leg completely, I can’t stand independently on a single leg due to body weight driven imbalance, curved spine and deformed right hip and for the same reasons I can’t reach my toes as well. So, I need assistance to support me standing and then dress or undress including putting on and taking off socks and shoe.

     

    When I sit down with a single leg on a chair or a bed where seat belt doesn’t exist to get dressed or undressed, I can’t manage it independently as I fall over as I reach my left toes due to deformed right hip and pelvic area. I need assistance to take dress underneath of my left leg, then to pull it to its knee level, then to insert my deformed right leg in to dress, then to support me to stand up, then to pull dress to my waist level and then to fasten button.  

     

    When I sit down with a single leg on a chair where seat belt exists to get dressed or undressed and then when I try to reach my left toes, total weight of my upper body gets transferred on to my left leg and then don’t allow me to lift that left leg slightly up to take dress or socks underneath of it. I can also not lift that left leg slightly up without reaching its toes due to deformed right hip and pelvic area.

     

     When I wear the prosthesis for my deformed right leg, I need assistance to dress or undress as the prosthesis does prevent me reaching the toes of both legs because of its structure. It was clearly established by Capita in their assessment in 2013.

     

     

    1 B/ Dressing and Undressing – How I have been managing this: My wife has always been assisting me completely to dress and undress including putting on and taking off socks and shoes.

     

     

    1 C/ Dressing and Undressing – What happens in case of absence of assistance: I can’t manage this activity at all and which block my toilet and bathing needs as well. So, my wife always ensures of being

     

    Based on the above, my situation for this activity will fall in to “Needs assistance to be able dress or undress their lower body “as like before. So, I am kindly requesting you apply this descriptor and associated points.


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    You really should avoid mentioning any lies that may have been told in the report because DWP and Tribunal (if it gets that far and most do) won't be interested in any lies told in the report.

    You should just concentrate on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    Other than that no one can advise you what you should write because no one on an internet forum knows exactly how your conditions affect you.

    Face to face advice from an agency near you is the way forward. Good luck.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi All,

    This is what i have written and sent to DWP for my MR

     

    I would like to bring to your kind attention that the descriptor “Need assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body” for “Dressing and undressing daily living component has been over looked for me despite I have been struggling with complete deformity to my right leg, right thigh, right pelvic area and right hip joint. These deformities are lifelong as these have originated from birth and which have been getting worse as age progresses.


    I am here with providing detailed information regarding my disability and explaining how my right leg deformity has been completely preventing me to get my lower body dressed and undressed including putting on and taking off socks and shoes independently and how I have been completing these tasks with my wife’s assistance.  With this information, I kindly request you to re-assess my condition against this descriptor and offer me appropriate points to get daily living allowance to combat the adverse impact of my disability and manage my everyday life smoothly.


    The deformed right leg is about 6 inches in length. It has got a small foot with 3 fingers and a curved bone structure all the way through in it. The Knee and Ankle joints have completely missed. Thigh has formed in a round shape due to deformation of a thigh bone. The pelvic bone has deformed. The hip joint that is above the thigh has also significantly deformed. The spine has also significantly curved to the right due to deformation of its underneath bone structure. These combined deformities have massively restricted my abilities to manage various daily living tasks and mobility needs. These deformities are from birth and for lifelong. The UK disabilities act has rated this combined disability as 80% severe.

      

    I use the full-length prosthesis to manage my extremely limited mobility needs. With assistance from my wife, I attach the full-length prosthesis to my body by inserting the deformed leg in to the upper socket and then fasten it tightly with a strap on the prosthesis and then fasten another belt on the prosthesis tightly across to the waist. This process does allow the prosthesis to hold on to my body and then use it for exceptionally short distance walking needs. When I use the prosthesis, I get substantial pain in my deformed right leg, right thigh, right pelvic area and right hip joint because deformation of required bone structure. Walking does also cause severe pain in my spine as it has curved to the right. The upper socket of the prosthesis prevents me to sit properly as it covers whole of my right pelvic area.


    Daily living Tasks – Dressing and Undressing:

     

    1/ Dressing and Undressing - Need assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body – 0 points allotted:  I was given 0 points for this task / descriptor by saying that I was able to touch my toes with my upper limbs and stand during the musculoskeletal examination. I could touch my left toes for about 3 seconds with significant pain in my curved spine and deformed right hip, right pelvic area, right thigh and right leg as those got pulled down towards left side from their normal (right) side. I was able to do this exercise in the examination because I was on a wheel chair with seat belt fasten and as I was also not wearing my prosthesis.

     

    I could hardly stand in the examination despite my wife assisted as I was on a single leg (normal left leg) at that time.

     

    When Capita assessed me in 2013, they have established that I need assistance in dressing and undressing my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoes throughout my life given significant deformity to my right hip, right pelvic area, right thigh and right leg.



    1 A/ Dressing and Undressing – Need assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body - Can I manage this task independently?  I can’t manage this task independently either by standing or sitting. Since I am missing my right leg completely, I can’t stand independently on a single leg (normal left leg) due to body weight driven imbalance, curved spine, deformed right hip, deformed right pelvic area and deformed right leg. and for the same reasons I can’t reach my toes as well in a standing position. So, I need assistance in standing and then dressing or undressing my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoe.

     

    When I sit down with a single leg (normal left leg) on a chair or a bed where seat belt doesn’t exist and then when I try to get dressed or undressed my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoe, I can’t manage it independently as I fall over as I attempt to reach my left toes due to lack of support from deformed right hip, deformed right pelvic area, deformed right thigh and deformed right leg. So, for dressing, I need assistance to take dress underneath of my left leg, then to pull it to its knee level, then to insert my deformed right leg in to dress, then to assist me to stand up, then to pull dress to my waist level and then to fasten button. These steps repeat in an opposite way for undressing.

     

    When I sit down with a single leg ( normal left leg ) on a chair where seat belt exists and then when I try to reach my left toes to get dressed or undressed my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoe, total weight of my upper body gets transferred on to my left leg alone because of lack of support from right deformed hip, deformed right pelvic area, deformed right thigh and 



    deformed right leg and then that transferred weight doesn’t allow me to lift the left leg up at all to take dress or socks or shoe underneath of it. So, I need assistance to get dressed and undressed as explained in the above paragraph.

     

    I can’t raise my left leg high up to bring it closer to my waist to get dressed or undressed my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoe because lack of support from my right side due to significantly deformed right hip, deformed right pelvic area, deformed right thigh and deformed right leg.

     

    When I lie down on a bed with a single leg (normal left leg) and attempt to get dressed or undressed my lower body including putting and taking of socks and shoe, I can’t reach my left (normal) toes in any form due to significant deformity on my right side.

     

    When I wear the prosthesis for my deformed right leg and sit on a chair to get dressed or undressed my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoes, the prosthesis’s upper socket and knee joint prevents me reaching the toes of both the legs because structure of the prosthesis and hence; I need assistance to get dressed or undressed my lower body even when I am on the prosthesis. It was clearly assessed and confirmed by Capita in their assessment carried out in 2013.


    1 B/ Dressing and Undressing – Need assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body - How I have been managing this task? My wife has always been assisting me completely to dress and undress my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoes. To get dressed, my wife first assists me to wear the prosthesis, then she dresses the prosthesis (including socks and shoe), then she dresses my lower left leg (including socks and shoe), then I stand up with support from my prosthesis, then my wife pull dress up to my waist level and give it to me to fasten buttons. These steps repeat in an opposite way with my wife’s assistance to get undressed.

     

     

    1 C/ Dressing and Undressing – Need assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body - What happens to this task in case of absence of assistance? I can’t manage this task independently and I must wait for my wife to be available for assistance.  So, my wife always ensures of being around to assist me in this task.

     

    Based on the above, my disability is completely preventing me to manage independently dressing or undressing my lower body including putting on and taking off socks and shoes and hence; I need assistance for the same. So, kindly requesting you to assign the descriptor “Needs assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body “as like before and grant relevant points.

     

    Thank you very much for your patience and valuable time for reading this reconsideration request form.

     





  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    No one on an internet forum can tell you what you should write for the MR request because no one knows how your conditions affect you.

    What i can say is that you've addressed activity 6 dressing and undressing with 3 possible descriptors A, B and C but you can only score once for an activity so you need to decide which one you think you should score points in and not all 3.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 975Member Pioneering
    B is the most accurate for a lower limb prosthesis. 
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi Poppy...Many thanks for your quick response and feedback. I have  submitted my reconsideration request specifically for their over look over the descriptor "Need assistance to be able to dress or undress their lower body” for “Dressing and undressing” when they assessed my case. So, i have taken all possible tasks for this descriptor and explained that my right lower extremity is completely preventing me to execute this task independently. I have emphasized the same point above the salutation as well. 
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Thank you Ilovecats...DWP has overlooked this item despite they had my assessment report from 2013 and 2019 confirming the same. I can't understand how it could happen.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Ilovecats...I have also sent to DWP images of my deformed right leg and a full prosthesis that i have been using to justify all of my points...
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617Member - under moderation Pioneering
    No one on an internet forum can tell you what you should write for the MR request because no one knows how your conditions affect you.

    What i can say is that you've addressed activity 6 dressing and undressing with 3 possible descriptors A, B and C but you can only score once for an activity so you need to decide which one you think you should score points in and not all 3.
    The DWP will (should) allocate the highest scoring descriptor of the three. Whether they do is another matter!
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Posts: 5,249Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    The maximum for problems with dressing lower body is 2 points, either assistance or using an aid
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    CockneyRebel Yes...I deserve 2 points for my problem and requesting DWP for the same.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Dear All,

    I haven't heard yet from DWP on my mandatory reconsideration request yet. Meanwhile i would like to approach you all again and take your views on how my disability has been preventing me to manage my dressing and undressing including putting on and taking off socks and shoe. See my right leg is just 6 inches long with a curved bone , deformed hip, pelvic and hip. When i sit down on a chair only my left leg will be on the ground. In this posture, if i bend down to get dressed and undressed, my whole body weight will get transferred on to my left leg ( as i don't have my right leg ) and make it unmovable. If i try to lift my left leg with out bending, i can't lift more than 3 inches high from the  ground level since i don't have my right leg. If try to lie down to manage this task, i can't reach my left leg as i can't bring it close to my hands due to missing of my right leg. So, i strongly believe i should get 2 points for this activity either under descriptor " Need aid or appliance " or " Need assistance to be able to dress lower body"....Capita assessor has discounted these points as i touched my left toes hardly for 3 seconds when i was presented my self on a wheel chair with out prosthesis and with fastening myself to the wheel chair seat belt.

    Appreciate your kind views...
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 975Member Pioneering
    I believe your questions has already been answered on more that one occasion previously? I have said that I would expect a B would be most appropriate.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I'm not sure what other views/advice you would like other than what's already been said previously in this thread.

    There's nothing more you can do until the MR decision's been made. If that remains the same and most do then you have 1 month to request the Tribunal.


  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Thank you ilovecats  for your quick response. I have explained to DWP covering my situation both under B and D to enable them to visualize how significantly my congenital disability has been hurting my life.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi poppy123456...I fully agree with you. Just gathering your fresh ideas to create a base to go Tribunal in case DWP keeps their original decision remains unchanged despite congenital deformity to my right upper leg structure. 
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 975Member Pioneering
    Stalin said:
    Thank you ilovecats  for your quick response. I have explained to DWP covering my situation both under B and D to enable them to visualize how significantly my congenital disability has been hurting my life.
    You cannot be scored for both. You prothesis is considered an aid. With it on, you could dress yourself reliably, without you couldn't. Whilst sitting to dress is not considered an aid, for this purpose you could not stand without it, having to sit, so B is most appropriate
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi..ilovecats. Sure I fully agree with you that i would be eligible for only one descriptor. But i have explained my situation comprehensively covering B and D to DWP so that they have strong base to make their decision. I have sent an image of deformed right leg and prosthesis to them along with my MR...Many thanks for all your help...
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I still do not understand why you have covered descriptors B and D when you can only score points once, which has been advised a few times through out the thread.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi Puppy...My congenital disability is as such that would qualify me for both the descriptors despite we are eligible for only one descriptor. I have explained my situation this way to ensure DWP understand the intensity of my disability as Capita has mislead them...Thank you..
  • drewdundeedrewdundee Posts: 49Member Courageous
    edited June 15
    Hi Stalin, 

    You do not need to repeat your medical condition to us in every post we understand. I do not think you understand Poppy, Under that section dressing and undressing you can only be scored once, not twice for two different descriptors so focus on that. They dont need two descriptions, they just want to know how it affects you.
    Hope this helps.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi drewdundee...  I completely  understand you and Puppy. I am not countering your views at all as you are all kindly helping me. I have just comprehensively elaborated my situation to DWP that i certainly need assistance to manage my dressing and  undressing needs.  
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    We understand that but you've concentrated on 2 descriptors, when you only need to concentrate on the one, like we've all been trying to explain to you. You've just made it more complicated.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 975Member Pioneering
    My logic is that D does not apply because B does . . .
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Many thanks for all your kind advises. DWP has fully ignored my difficulties for dressing in their award calculation and hence: I had to provide my justification in my MR comprehensively and which may be appearing as covering both the descriptors such as B and D, but I meant to convince them genuinely with my difficulties.
  • drewdundeedrewdundee Posts: 49Member Courageous
    edited June 16
    I hope your letter covers whats actually relevant cause I am not sure how you can be under two different descriptors when they are ..... Descriptor D - Is you cannot get dressed or undressed at all. Clearly you can it's just difficult. Descriptor B is you can get dressed or undressed using a special aid, this one is more likely to be the one they select cause you CAN get dressed. So you cannot have both descriptor D and B as an option you can only have one. Tried to help in this one but I don't know maybe. Your reply should be focused around how you get dressed (cause you can) and the difficulties it poses you, not based around the descriptors they use to score you. 

    I wish you all the best in your MR. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 14,904Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Descriptor B and D both score the same points. B is using and aid where as D is needing assistance for the lower body, it's not about not being able to dress at all as that's F.  Even though they both score the same points you really do need to focus on which descriptor fits you and not on both descriptors like you did.

    This is the whole reason advice was given to seek face to face advice.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    Hi Puppy you are right the descriptor D is about the assistance required to get lower body and not the whole body. I am not sure if they consider my prosthesis as an aid and hence had to keep myself justified against B and D descriptors. In case they overlook B again then at least justification D will force them to look in to my situation. Thanks All
  • StalinStalin Posts: 29Member Listener
    edited June 17
    Dear All,

    I think i am at least eligible for 2 points for my dressing and undressing needs as i need something to sit on to initiate this activity. The below extract from the upper tribunal judgment " Appeal No. [removed by moderator]" 

    Please look at  " Needing to sit does not show an impaired function for carrying out the activity" which means if we were to sit because of an impaired function, the thing that we use to sit on should be considered as an aid..... Do you all agree with it?.

    35. The tribunal also applied its approach correctly. The evidence was that the claimant sat in order to put on her jeans and take them off because of impaired balance. It is normal to carry out that aspect of dressing and undressing while standing, but it is just as normal to do so sitting down for convenience. Balance for that part of dressing and undressing is not required in order to carry out the activity in a normal manner. Needing to sit does not show an impaired function for carrying out the activity, but only for one manner of carrying out the activity. The tribunal was right, on the evidence, to find that the claimant did not score points for this Activity 6.”
     
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 773Member Pioneering
    edited June 16
    @stalin - I'm still of the opinion that you ought to pick which descriptor applies, and support this with brief examples rather than pages and pages.

     Others have given similar advice but you don't seem to receptive to this - which is fine, you must make your own decision. You have to convince the DWP of you arguments not the readers of this forum.

    You are now quoting caselaw - which no-one on here will be able to advise on as it's a specialist area.

    I really do think that you need to seek specialist face to face advice on this, as others have advised, but I think it best to wait until you get the result of your MR. There's nothing can be done until you receive that...
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 975Member Pioneering
    Question asked and answered many times.
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