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ptp tribunal advice please

Hi all, i had my pip tribunal today and won, i was so shocked i didnt ask any questions! does anyone know how long it takes until i start recieving pip and if its backpaid at all? i originally applied 15 months ago  many thanx 

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    Great news. Backdated money can take 8 weeks. With it being so close to Christmas it's unlikely you'll receive any backdated money before.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thankyou :)  how far back do they pay? i first applied 15 months ago  
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    From the date you first applied. If you already had an award, you'll be paid the difference between that and the new award.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
  • worried33worried33 Posts: 79Member Connected
    If it helps when I won my DLA tribunal I think I got the money within a month.  But with the time of the year, been what it is, I wouldnt expect it before 2019.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thankyou :) i just dont know what to expect! i applied 15 months ago, when do they back pay from?  conflicting answers, some people say they dont backdate anymore many thanx
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    mic67 said:
    when do they back pay from? 
    As previously advised, it's from the date you applied. If you already have an award then you'll be paid the difference between that and the new award. This can take 8 weeks.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    I hope thats the case :) i called cab who said they doubt it as they didnt think they backpaid anymore! Thankyou:) ive never claimed before this claim 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I have no idea why you were told that by CAB because it's not true. Before the Tribunal, did you have a PIP award at all?
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    no 
    i applied 15 months ago and got zero points then won at tribunal, does that make a difference?  many thanx
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    mic67 said:
    no 
    i applied 15 months ago and got zero points then won at tribunal, does that make a difference?  many thanx
    As previously advised you'll receive back dated money from the date you applied.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    many thanks for your help :)
  • worried33worried33 Posts: 79Member Connected
    Basically the tribunal changed the decision made by the DWP.

    Because they changed it, it means the decision applies for the entire claim period.  So yes it will be backdated.
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Posts: 2,654Member Pioneering
    edited December 2018
    Hi mic67, 

    It is right to say that a PIP claim cannot be backdated as there are no backdating rules. 
    PIP will have to pay your claim from the date you applied, so poppy123456 is correct, but this isn't "backdating" in the true meaning of backdating within benefits law. It's just that they are paying your claim from your claim date, albeit 15 months ago. I don't know whether that is where you have misunderstood the CAB, or whether they were actually wrong in what they meant.

    Lee
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Its possible i misunderstood! Thankyou so much for your help :)
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    i read today that even though i won at tribunal dwp can appeal this and i may not get pip?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Yes that's correct. They have as much chance to appeal the decision as we do. To do this they must first request the statement of reasons, once they receive this they must find an error in law. I really wouldn't worry. As advised payments can take 8 weeks so it'll be in the New year now that you'll receive your payment.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    As always ...grateful for your help :)
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello again, its almost 4 weeks since my pip tribunal i won and ive heard absolutely nothing :( is this a bad sign? any help would be great :)
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    No, it doesn't mean anything. It's perfectly normal to wait 8 weeks for any backdated money owed. With Christmas and new year just gone the delays would be longer.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thankyou :) i thought id have had at least a letter by now, its worring that dwp may appeal and all the stress up to now doesnt end :(  thankyou for replying :)
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello again, sorry to be a pest! i received a letter yesterday saying that DWP are asking for a SOR :( im really worried now, i dont understand what happens? any help would be great :)
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    DWP have as much chance to appeal the decision as we do. To do this they must first ask for the SOR, which they've done. When they receive this they must find an error in law before they can take in any further. Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do but wait.
  • SAMandCHARLEYSAMandCHARLEY Posts: 32Member Connected
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello, thanks for replying
    what is an error in law? is it that they disagree with what a judge a doctor and a neurologist said at the tribunal? im lost with this, i would have thought when a tribunal is won that would be the end! Its madness! 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,326Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    They’ve asked for an SOR. As the tribunal decision still stands you’re entitled to push for payment but they’re entitled to say that it would be irresponsible to do so given that they may challenge. An SOR does not mean they will challenge. It just means they’re looking at it. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    what is SDR
    You mean SOR..... statement of reasons.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thanks :)
    If i asked about payments would that effect my 'case' ? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    If you did that and they challenged the decision and won then you'll end up having to pay it all back. As mike says, asking for the SOR doesn't mean they'll challenge but it can happen. If it was me then i'd wait because i wouldn't want to take any chances of having to owe them all that money back.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    thankyou im so confused, how can they challenge what a judge has said? do you have any idea if its common for this to happen and for them to win? thanks 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,326Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    No! But “asking” also won’t change anything. If you want to force the lsyment issue you need face to face advice to explore options like a letter before action to force the issue.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    They have the same chance do. Asking for the SOR just means they're looking at it. I have no idea how common/rare it is for them to appeal after requesting the SOR.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thankyou for your advice 
  • SAMandCHARLEYSAMandCHARLEY Posts: 32Member Connected
    When the accessor sends in the report, does DWP go by what the accessor says or do they bypass that and make up there own minds
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    They usually go with the report, it's rare to go against it but it can happen.
  • SAMandCHARLEYSAMandCHARLEY Posts: 32Member Connected
    Thank you for that, you have been so helpful
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello
    i phoned cab who told me to contact my MP
    would you agree? im worried it would rile the dwp and obviously i dont want to do anything that jepordises 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I don't agree, sorry. It can take 8 weeks to receive any backdated money. DWP have requested the SOR and this doesn't mean they will appeal.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    do you think i should wait and if they are going to challenge then contact my mp?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I'm not sure why you were advised to contact your MP at all. As you've been advised, they've just asked for the SOR. It would be the same if you had lost the Tribunal, you would have wanted to request the SOR too. They have as much chance that we do.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    They said the more people contact their MPs the better the fight against the DWP and the way they treat people 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,326Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    MPs are by and large disinterested. They’ll adopt their party position and that can often be completely unhelpful. Letters are also dealt with by their researchers who are often very young and who will simply accept what DWP tell them. Also contacting an MP results in the creation of a dummy file and that can slow things down. There are exceptions course but I genuinely can’t remember the last case I saw where an MP was the solution. They’re more likely to refer to advice services than deal with it themselves.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Il just have to play the waiting game! Thanks for the advice 
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    hello again just want to ask if anyone has any idea of the time it takes after dwp request the SOR, ive not heard anything at all ...i won my tribunal on 13th decemeber,  many thanks 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    Providing they request it within 1 month of the date of the decision there's no timescales to how long it takes to receive it. If you haven't heard anything give DWP a ring for an update because they are the only ones that can tell you what's happening for sure.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thanks, as always :) 
    so i dont contact the court at all? just dwp?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I would say DWP because they're the ones requesting the SOR.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thankyou, do you know if theres a special dept/number to call? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Just PIP. 0800 1214433
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello AGAIN!! sorry to be a pest, i got a letter today saying...*A district judge has said that the tribunal has no power to enforce its decisions--and i should contact dwp to put the decision into effect*  Im so confused, can anyone tell me what this means please? many thanks as always  
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 29
    It simply means that HMCTS can't force DWP to pay you what they owe you. I really think you're looking into this too much. As advised it can take 8 weeks for DWP to pay any backdated money owed. As they've asked for the SOR all you can do is wait.

    Did you contact DWP as advised?
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    thanks for replying...I dont understand why they have sent a letter saying only that? theres no mention of SOR in the letter  and the last bit where it says i have to contact dwp to put the decision into effect? what does that mean?  

    i havent rung dwp since i got the letter today

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Please ring DWP tomorrow morning and they will tell you what's happening because i can't help you further with this but DWP will.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    will do   thanks
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello again. i called dwp last week as suggested, they fobbed me off saying that i would be notified by letter, i rang again today to be told the dwp had in fact  missed the one month deadline for requesting an SOR and are now appealing to get an extension! Im absolutley gobsmacked how they can do this!? any advice would be most welcome :)
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    You really need to get some expert face to face advice regarding this. Please contact an advice centre near you. CAB, welfare rights or a law centre.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    I will contact welfare rights tomorrow thnaks. i was just hoping someone on here may have had a similar experience 
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello, not sure if you can still see my previous msges as its been a while! Im still no nearer to getting the pip i was awarded almost 5 months ago, i involved my MP who wrote to DWP and HMCT but still waiting, does anyone have any advice please?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Sounds like they are appealing the decision, have you rang DWP to ask?
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    phoned several times, the dwp were too late requesting the SOR -but then they appealed and the judge allowed it! 
    all i get told is that the DWP STILL have not received the SOR, its 5 months since the tribunal now
    its a joke how they treat people
  • benjamintolmerbenjamintolmer Posts: 28Member Connected
    edited May 8
    You really need to get some expert face to face advice regarding this. Please contact an advice centre near you. CAB, welfare rights or a law centre.
    yes, that's better for you
    mic67 :/
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,326Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Forgive the length of the post but this may help you and others. 

    You were advised in both January and February to get face to face advice but don’t  appear to have done so. I appreciate there may be health related reasons for that but you haven’t said so and now cannot make any progress on this issue unless you either accept the delay and let things play out or get face to face advice regarding a complaint/letter before action. This forum really can’t offer any more than it has in that regard. The current situation as I see it is as follows:

    1 - you won your appeal but DWP won’t pay out as they believe the decision may be erroneous in law. They have sought an SOR and ROP (record of proceedings) to help them look at whether the tribunal did err in law. On the one hand most reasonable people would expect DWP to not recklessly pay out if there was a prospect the decision could be flawed. On the other hand this can be hugely distressing when people are waiting 3/4 of a year or much longer just to get a hearing. Nevertheless if you want to change the current situation your target is both DWP and HMCTS.

    DWP require a letter before action to ask them to put the tribunals decision into place. It’s the only decision which currently exists. Delaying for a few weeks is acceptable but as that slips into months I’d say much less so. You can do LBAs yourself but really it needs face to face advice and support as the matter may well require further legal action to kick DWP into action. DWP did nothing wrong requesting the SOR/ROP (you’d have probably done the same if you’d lost) but equally they have to recognise when the delay becomes unsupportable. Whichever way you dress it up phone advice or forum advice isn’t going to cut it. You need representation.

    2 - HMCTS are most likely responsible for the delay. When DWP lodge their request for an SOR/ROP HMCTS admin., who have been in a state of perpetual mess for at least 3 decades, sometimes record the request as having been passed to the judge when it has not.

    DWP have no incentive to check or chase that because after all why such failure to pass the request on means another time period passes in which they don't have to pay up. 

    Assuming it’s not administration messing up then you have to look at who the request was passed to. Salaried judges are full-time and probably sit 4 days a week. That’s the equivalent of maybe 32 hearings and decisions per week. Think if it as doing 2 3 hour exams 80% of your working life and you’ll get an idea that although they are well-rewarded they also work flat out to earn it. Let’s assume (generously) that only 10% of appellants or their reps. ask for an SOR/ROP. That would be more than 3 a week. Whilst the ROP requires no effort as it’s just their notes on the day, the SOR has to be constructed from scratch using their notes from the day and their powers of recall. Depending on how old the appeal is there may not even be appeal papers to help. It’s time-consuming and difficult even when it goes well. 1 decision might take 1/2 a day to put together or longer. You have 3 decisions pw to expand on but only 1 day left pw to do them in and even that assumes you’re not sitting or doing something else. It’s not hard to see how even a full-time judge could get 3 requests pw but not even get through 1. 

    If the judge were fee paid/part-time they may sit varying amounts each week but they’ll also likely have another job to maintain their income. They didn’t at 1 stage even get paid for every SOR/ROP request. If they sit as a judge 1 day a week and work elsewhere for the other 4 days and also get 10% of decisions triggering requests then they’d still have 1 or 2 requests each week but only their evenings and weekends to do them in.  

    You might begin to see where delays come in. That doesn’t excuse those delays but once you understand the process it’s much easier to devise effective challenges. 

    On the HMCTS side you need support to write (this really isn’t going to be solved with a phone call to an ill-equipped HMCTS call centre) and ask HMCTS what date they got the request from DWP; when they passed it to a judge; confirmation it actually happened; how many reminders the judge has had so far and so on. Depending on the answer you may have grounds for a complaint. 

    At this stage your choices are not either/or. You really need to be doing both. 




  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Posts: 1,496Administrator Scope community team
    edited May 8
    mic67 said:
    all i get told is that the DWP STILL have not received the SOR, its 5 months since the tribunal now
    I can only really echo the advice given above.

    It's rare but unfortunately the judge can take as long as they want to write the SOR. Have you tried contacting the court clerk to chase it up? The DWP aren't going to push them for it and as they've requested it, they aren't required to do anything with your claim until it's received, so it's worth you doing. 
    Senior Community Officer
    Scope
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Hello
    Thankyou very much for the replies, In response to not seeking advice.. i have had a face to face with my MP end of february and also  with a chap from welfare rights, i have tried every avenue i know of, CAB were no help at all. my MP has written to Amber Rudd and HMCT with a complaint letter from my carer and myself as to the effect all this is having as i has an MS relapse due to the stress. None of this seems to have made any difference. i saw the last comment on here from 'Adrian' which says the judge can take as long as they like basically, thats exactly what i was told the last time i rang the courts (friday). They arent interested that its been 5 months now since the tribunal after waiting a year and a half for that tribunal, its soul destroying. The advice i got from welfare rights was to just apply again for pip. I am just clutching at straws by asking if anyone has any advice as im just lost and so tired of it all. many thanks 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I wouldn't advise you to re-apply because that's not the answer here. There's no further advice anyone on a forum can give you other than what mike has advised above.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    I didnt see a point in reapplying either -to go through this again, Mikes advice is to get face to face? but ive already had that from my MP and welfare rights, is there any advice as to who else i could try? thankyou 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I'm not sure what a local MP could do here. You need advice about writing the letter before action as advised by mike above.

    Here's the advice. DWP require a letter before action to ask them to put the tribunals decision into place. It’s the only decision which currently exists. Delaying for a few weeks is acceptable but as that slips into months I’d say much less so. You can do LBAs yourself but really it needs face to face advice and support as the matter may well require further legal action to kick DWP into action. DWP did nothing wrong requesting the SOR/ROP (you’d have probably done the same if you’d lost) but equally they have to recognise when the delay becomes unsupportable. Whichever way you dress it up phone advice or forum advice isn’t going to cut it. You need representation.

  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Im sorry i dont follow? my MP already did send a letter to DWP and to the court.
    Im not sure what LBAs means?  and who could help me?  can i contact 'mike' directly for his advice? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    LBA means letter before action. No one on an internet forum can help you with this. Please get some face to face advice as advised. Welfare rights or a law centre will be able to assist you with this BUT you will need to speak to them in person and not through a phone call or anything else.

    I'm really not sure what further advice you want because there's only so much we can advise on the forum.
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Id like advice on who i should see regarding help? welfare rights advice is to re apply for pip. CAB were of no use, I dont know of anyone else thats why im asking if anyone on here does, i realise a forum cant sort my issue i was just hoping someone else had maybe been through this situation and could offer advice, 
     
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,314Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Why would you want to re-apply when you've already been awarded by a Tribunal? When you got advice from welfare rights did you speak to them face to face or through a phone call? Did you ask them for help writing the letter before action? If you didn't then you need to contact them again and ask for help writing the letter.

    This link will tell you what other advice centres are in your area. https://advicelocal.uk/

  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thats exactly what i said, i saw a chap from WR in  accrington.
    He also said its a shame solicitors dont do free surgeries anymore as i could benefit from seeing one! Thanks for the link il have a look on there.

  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Posts: 1,496Administrator Scope community team
    Hi @mic67

    Please don't reapply, that is terrible advice and I'm sorry if Welfare Rights told you to do so. 
    The Citizens Advice Bureau have a few suggestions for free legal advice, some of which specialise in benefit claims. The LawWorks section at the bottom might be of particular relevance. 
    Senior Community Officer
    Scope
  • mic67mic67 Posts: 38Member Listener
    Thanks for replying, below is the email from welfare rights .I dont understand why id go through this again! I wouldnt!
    Thankyou for your advice, much appreciated! 

    'Another thought given the delay & especially if the DWP are given permission to take the case to the Upper Tribunal is to claim again , especially as you mention a relapse. If you were considering this I would like to look through your appeal papers.
    I appreciate that this involves more hassle and complicates things but it is worth considering.

    Best wishes'
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