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PIP Tribunal Hearing questions for next week

candos60candos60 Posts: 12Member Connected
edited January 9 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hi,  I have my PIP tribunal hearing next week. All my paperwork is ready for colection. They have just phoned to tell me they updated some paperwork for the hearing but they haven’t submitted it within the 7 days prior to the hearing. They tell me I can still hand this in on the day? 
 I will have to attend this hearing alone and I’ve just read somewhere on here that un~represented you have less chance of winning the appeal?  I’m going to be a total wreck, and will definiylyely fall apart the minute I need to open my mouth in there. Who/how can someone ‘official’ represent me when I cannot afford legal advice? CAB are no longer allowed to accompany you.
i will need a taxi as I have no transport and no~one to take me. will I be able to claim back the fare? There is documented letter(s) from my GP in the past stating I cannot use public transport.


Replies

  • michfinchmichfinch Posts: 147Member Courageous
    Have you a Psycologist or anyone appointed by the Govt who helps you? My local Social Security Office appointed me one through Momentum Skills up here in the North East.
  • lindadeniselindadenise Posts: 302Member Pioneering
    I took my daughter with me and it was not bad at all, the judge doctor and disability expert were very nice. I won my appeal can you get a member of your family to go with you. 
    Goodluck just be yourself.
  • cat6873cat6873 Posts: 35Member Connected
    @candos60 I was on my own and I was a total wreck and I won! Also my judge was very nice and so was the doctor and the disability expert. I was there for about 20 minutes and they called me back in after 10 and told me I won. Don't worry about it too much and just be honest. Good luck!
  • justg72justg72 Posts: 173Member Pioneering
    Hi cando60
    I am waiting for my tribunal and my Dad is going with me. Are you going alone to your tribunal? like you have stated above.
    Can you get a family member or a friend to go with you. If you go alone it CAN and WILL probably go against you, so I strongly advise that you take a friend or family member with you.
    If you have not got anybody to go with you, have you explained to CAB that you are going alone?
    They can sometimes get somebody to accompany you but not to represent you at the tribunal.
    I would also ring the tribunal court where you are attending to let them know that you will be going by taxi and you will be claiming the expenses back for it.
    Please try and find someone to go with you.
    Good luck
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,317Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    candos60 said:
    Hi,  I have my PIP tribunal hearing next week. All my paperwork is ready for colection. They have just phoned to tell me they updated some paperwork for the hearing but they haven’t submitted it within the 7 days prior to the hearing. They tell me I can still hand this in on the day? 
     I will have to attend this hearing alone and I’ve just read somewhere on here that un~represented you have less chance of winning the appeal?  I’m going to be a total wreck, and will definiylyely fall apart the minute I need to open my mouth in there. Who/how can someone ‘official’ represent me when I cannot afford legal advice? CAB are no longer allowed to accompany you.
    i will need a taxi as I have no transport and no~one to take me. will I be able to claim back the fare? There is documented letter(s) from my GP in the past stating I cannot use public transport.
    You can hand papers in on the day but what happens then depends on the volume. A single page or letter is fine. Several may result in an adjournment. 

    It’s not too late to seek a representative. Local law centre, independent adcuce centre or local authority welfare rights etc. The tribunal can be postponed to enable you to discuss your case with them and prepare the case properly. Have a look at https://advicelocal.uk/.

    Unrepresented your chances if winning are below 45%. Represented they rise to 71 to 75%.

    Your GP letter re: taxi fares is irrelevant. In order to arrange taxi fare oayments you need to ring HMCTS now and alert them to this. The clerk won’t be carrying cash on the day. 
  • ricky1040ricky1040 Posts: 81Member Courageous
    Cab represented me and i only uad my appeal in december? 
  • affii1993affii1993 Posts: 90Member Courageous
    Hey can you get any family member or friends I took my family members I was a nerve rack and had worse mirgaine 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,317Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger

    TRIBUNAL

    1) Concentrate wholly on what you were like on the date of claim.

    2) There are no “trick” questions. Tribunals are usually listed 20 minutes apart so, apart from the appeal papers, they need questions which cut across lots of functions. So the car question is brilliant because it indicates grip; mobility; dexterity; the ability to do something repeatedly; concentration and stamina. Instead of thinking negatively about such stuff think about what they’re getting at and your answers will be much better and more detailed. Similar questions include whether you’ve been on holiday recently. It feeds into mobility (getting across an airport); stamina; the ability to cope alone; the need for aids and appliances.

    3) There are no set rules or order for a hearing beyind the requirement that it must be seen to be fair. 

    4) Watch the judge’s pen. All three members may take notes but only the judge writes a record of proceedings. If you don’t want them to miss anything then remember that they can’t write as fast as you can speak, so watch their pen and slow down. Don’t worry about going too slow. They will tell you if you do.

    5) Never interrupt any tribunal member. It is perfectly okay to challenge them provided it’s not rude or aggressive. However, think about whether what you’re challenging them on is directly related to points. If it’s not then better to focus on points. This is especially important because loads of people second guess the demeanour of tribunal members as determining whether they are pro or against and it’s largely nonsense. An aggressive, challenging member may well just be a poor communicator and wholly on your side right up to the point you challenge them etc.

    6) Get yourself a representative and travel to the venue by whatever means makes you feel comfortable. It’s only ever an issue if you don’t explain what you did in full and if doing so contradicts your other evidence in some way for daily living and /or mobility.

    7) Same goes for clothes. You need to wear whatever makes you feel comfortable and relaxed. If you’re not relaxed then the likelihood of you presenting well are much reduced. Dressing down is not a good idea unless that all you can afford. A person who feels naked without make-up or a suit and tie will similarly be over stressed if they try to pretend they’re in their comfort zone dressing down. 

    8) Other people’s tribunal experience can be valuable but it’s just that. Their experience. If they lost then it’s the tribunal to blame. If they win they everything they did is why they won and what you must do. The truth is usually very much in between.

    9) Know your case. What points are you going for and why. What’s your evidence? “The HCP was a liar” is neither evidence nor a winning strategy. Also, know the appeal papers. What’s where. 

    10) Do not be tempted to claim you’ve worsened since the date of claim. That’s a recipe for a failed appeal and an invitation to make another claim. Even if you have got worse always concentrate on your date of claim and what you were like then.

    REPRESENTATION AND ROLES

    You can be 

    - a representative - you don’t talk for the appellant because they’re there but you do get to outline what award you’re looking for and what the legal case is as well as pick up on any issues the tribunal or appellant miss or misinterpret.

    - observer - sits away from the tribunal but you are watching only. You do not and cannot take part.

    - witness - you give your own evidence to support the appellants own case. You don’t get to comment on anything else. You watch silently, do your bit and you’re done.

    - appellant - the person making the claim being appealed. The only person allowed to present their evidence and answer questions on it unless they have an appointee. 

    Most family members struggle to be observers as it’s hard to be silent. They struggle to represent as they don’t know enough of the law, case law or guidance and confuse the role with speaking for the appellant and get shot down in flames to the detriment of the case. They often make poor witnesses as they haven’t been prepared by a rep and want to rehear the whole case instead of focusing on what they know. 

    The temptation to talk for any appellant needs to be resisted. You’ll always get people saying “but...

    - they’re not articulate.

    - they’re nervous.

    and many other arguments. Bottom line - nothing makes the case for the consequences of someone’s ill health better than a poorly appellant. 

    The other side of having representative is that, as you’ll read on here, people get incredibly stressed with the process; what comes when; what letters mean; what is good evidence; what will happen on the day. A good rep explains all and covers all the bases. It’s typical that people think representation is just about what happens on the day and the outcome. That’s about 10% of what gets done. A good rep should also keep you off web forums (seriously). All your questions should be answered by them. If people come on here because they need answers and they have a rep. that is concerning. 

    Now, having said that, tribunals are inquisitorial so it’s perfectly possible to win a case without a rep just as it’s equally possible to lose a case with a rep. However, a badly presented case can win with a decent tribunal but won’t with a poor one People who have won without representation tend to almost always ascribe this to something they did rather than the skill of the tribunal pulling out what was relevant. Having seen tribunals over three decades, including many times as an observer, it’s almost never the case. I’ve never yet heard of anyone unrepresented winning two tribunals for themselves. 

    Finally, don’t confuse an organisation with a good reputation as meaning all their reps will be good. Good organisations have bad reps. Reputationally poor organisation have good reps. How can you tell? Walk away from anyone who wants to tell you their success rate? It’s a fave tactic of organisations that charge but also of inexperienced or renegade/boastful reps. That tells you that they’re either lying or cherry picking only cases which are clear cut winners and probably would be anyway with a decent tribunal and without them. Good reps do not guarantee a win but they will take in winnsble cases rather than likely winners and they’re the more likely to turn a marginal case into a winner. They’ll also know their law, case law and guidance and be able to cite it but in plain English. 

  • cat6873cat6873 Posts: 35Member Connected

     I’ve never yet heard of anyone unrepresented winning two tribunals for themselves. 

    Well I did! One on December 12th for PIP and one on January 4th for Universal Credit. No help from anyone whatsoever! I tried to get help but CAB said they couldn't represent me and a friend let me down so I had no choice but to go by myself. All I did was answer all their questions. And yes I was a wreck...anxious, panic attack, asthma attack, you name it I had it on the day. As a famous judge says: you don't need to have good memory if you're telling the truth. 


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,317Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    I was referring to tribunals on the same issue.
  • sally1966sally1966 Posts: 5Member Listener
    Hi don't be nervous I went through appeal for my son's pip and won.it doesn't matter that you have no one with you.
  • candos60candos60 Posts: 12Member Connected
    Thank you everyone for your support so far, it means the world to me.
    Off to collect paperwork from CAB this morning. Found out yesterday they’ve not even submitted it to the tribunal let alone within the 7 day deadline. Gutted beyond belief. I intend to see how much should have been submitted and if there is a lot it looks like I’ll be ringing the tribunal and asking for a delay so it can be submitted. All I’ve gone through this week healthwise with the worry too😢 
  • lindadeniselindadenise Posts: 302Member Pioneering
    Goodluck if it is alot of paperwork the court will Adjourne . I submitted my medical records and they needed to look over them. I got another date about a month later. 
    It was worth the wait i won my Tribunal.
  • candos60candos60 Posts: 12Member Connected
    I’ve no idea how much of the paperwork the tribunal already have it fries my brain! Late yesterday afternoon I received a phone call from an Advice fcompany (local) CEO herself. She’d read what I sent her and wanted to re-assure me and give me a few pointers as much as possible. The CAB have said because the HCP didn’t file a report of any kind, even though I was there an hour, the court may well order another assessment date. I hope not, I’m just about holding things together atm, prolonging it will be the final straw! 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,317Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    The CEO of a an “advice company”.

    Hmm. 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,595Member Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 12
    I won my tribunal unrepresented.  Expect the panel to be inquisitorial - they are there to find out what you can and can't do.  The panel might challenge you - don't let them lead you into changing your answer in essence, though you can elaborate if necessary.

    If they ask for how long can you walk rather than how far, say it takes you X seconds or minutes to walk Y meters.  Don't give a time in isolation - they might assume you can walk farther than in fact you can.

    Good luck!  71% of PIP appeals win.


  • candos60candos60 Posts: 12Member Connected
    My case is about the fact the HCP didn’t file a report after an hours assessment. Because. I was in a terrible state following the death of my best friends couple of weeks earlier, she decided I didn’t comply. That’s lies because the recording clearly proves I answered all her questions. What got her back up was the fact I asked her questions about her qualifications. She recognised my friend as she had visited her husband at home a few weeks earlier.  She falsified answers he gave too, but they were granted it without appeal. 
    I am waiting to hear if this particular HCP is on a list of ‘rogue’ HCPs being compiled by a charity I have been in touch with. 
  • miilreefmiilreef Posts: 21Member Connected
    I represented myself and received no help other than what I read on forums such as this. 
    It’s perfectly reasonable to say that your health issues have led to you being socially isolated and that it explains why you have no support.
    It’s important to concentrate on what descriptors apply to you and why.
    Percentages are important, for example: Can you wash yourself above your waist without assistance. If your condition is variable, as many peoples are, it’s important that you state clearly how often you can’t do something. So if you can only manage something 3 days a week you can’t manage it more than 50% of the time.
    I did point out where my assessment was wrong, made up or downright lies.
    There’s no use dwelling on the assessment beyond this, this is your opportunity to put the record straight and explain where you should receive points and why.
    Answer the questions as best you can, if you don’t understand a question or have lost your train of thought ask for the question to be repeated.
    Its easy to say don’t be anxious but it’s a unique experience and to most people it’s an unknown. The judge should explain everything to you.
    On assessment I was awarded 4 points for care and 0 for mobility. At tribunal I was awarded 14 points for care and 15 for mobility with a 10 year award. 
    It’s possible to do it alone. Good luck.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,317Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    candos60 said:
    My case is about the fact the HCP didn’t file a report after an hours assessment. Because. I was in a terrible state following the death of my best friends couple of weeks earlier, she decided I didn’t comply. That’s lies because the recording clearly proves I answered all her questions. What got her back up was the fact I asked her questions about her qualifications. She recognised my friend as she had visited her husband at home a few weeks earlier.  She falsified answers he gave too, but they were granted it without appeal. 
    I am waiting to hear if this particular HCP is on a list of ‘rogue’ HCPs being compiled by a charity I have been in touch with. 
    You need to make your case about something more than that. It’s easy enough to discredit a HCP report but you still have to have evidence to make the case for PIP. Discrediting the report and getting PIP are not the same thing.
  • candos60candos60 Posts: 12Member Connected
    Hi All sorry for the delay in updating about my tribunal. 
    The Judge ruled my appeal was allowed as I had shown good reason for ‘failing to comply’ (which is what DWP accused me of). Great News! However the second part didn’t please me quite so much.  The DWP had requested if my appeal was allowed that I attend another assessment and the judge ruled accordingly. I’m devastated.  
    Im currently at 85 weeks since my DLA was stopped. I’ve been advised when a claimants appeal is allowed DLA can be backpaid up until the decision is made from the next assessment, could this true in my case, should I contact DWP?
    Also I’m now worried if I’m not allowed that backdated DLA, when I have had this next assessment, if I’m awarded PIP am I entitled it be backdated to when they stopped my DLA? I’m worried because I thought PIP could only be awarded as of how I was on that day of assessment. Could DWP argue im not entitled to backpay because the award is granted as a result of the latest assessment? 
    Sorry for the long post. 

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,883Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    Sorry but it's not clear why you've been asked to attend another assessment. Why did you fail to comply? Sorry but without asking these then no one can possibly help you.
  • candos60candos60 Posts: 12Member Connected
    I didnt fail to comply! When I went for the f2f assessment in September 2017 I was in a terrible state. I had just lost my closest friend to cancer. She lived over 200 miles from me and because my DLA and other related benefits had been stopped I couldn’t afford to visit her before she passed away nor go to her funeral. I was distraught. I did answer every question I was asked, the only thing I refused was to bennand touch my toes, I’d never have got up again an explained that. Despite the level of upset I was repeatedly asked the same question slightly different ways, so I asked why. Seemingly some of these so called HCPs don’t believe you have the right to ask questions. In the paperwork I completed I’d explained how stressed I normally get and how I can come across as aggressive but it isn’t meant hat way. I ALWAYS begin any assessment by apologising before hand and that f2f was no different. Throughout the hour long assessment the HCP continued typing-she must have been shopping online or something because she never submitted a single word that was said. Instead she stated I’d ‘failed to comply’ which apparently explained why she filed no report. She hadnt bargained for the fact my friend who attended with me  secretly recorded the assessment on her mobile so we could prove the assessment did go ahead. This patriculat HCP is known for doing similar things to many other people. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 10,883Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Your DLA wont re-start because it's PIP now and you've had an assessment. You don't have a PIP award at the moment so there's no payments to start. Once you've had your face to face assessment and a decision is made, if your successfully awarded your PIP should be backdated to the date of the original PIP decision.
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