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Does a nurse have to be registered?

pamela1962pamela1962 Posts: 23Member Listener
edited February 13 in PIP, DLA and AA
Good afternoon everyone
I recently had a assessment for PIP and the nurse told me she was an A&E nurse. It turns out that she is not registered, as I have checked with the nurses council . 
Do they have to be registered to carry out assessments? 
Thank you
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Replies

  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    I'm fairly confident that nurses only have to be registered in order to practice, not to do administrative work...

    It may be that when she said that she 'was' an A&E nurse that is correct - she used to be one but isn't now!
  • pamela1962pamela1962 Posts: 23Member Listener
    But they still examine you so I would have thought they should be registered. 
    But you are probably right that they don't have to be.
  • Antonia_ScopeAntonia_Scope Posts: 1,783Member Pioneering
    Welcome to the community @Pamela1962

    Thank you for sharing this with us. I believe so, but I may be wrong. Some of our members may be able to help you with this.
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    @pamela1962 .....I've just found this in the DWP guidelines.....

    HCPs must "be fully registered with the relevant licensing body (doctors must have a licence to practise)"


  • pamela1962pamela1962 Posts: 23Member Listener
    Hi thank you that's great 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    If you read about the case of the Tattooist who was doing body modifications, he is up in court at the moment partly because he is not registered with the GMC and has no medical qualifications. So the law thinks people should be registered, but not the DWP, they are quiet happy to use reports from people who are unqualified in most if not all medical matters.

    Put the DWP in the dock with the Tattooist Brendan McCarthy I say.  
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    If you read about the case of the Tattooist who was doing body modifications, he is up in court at the moment partly because he is not registered with the GMC and has no medical qualifications. So the law thinks people should be registered, but not the DWP, they are quiet happy to use reports from people who are unqualified in most if not all medical matters.

    Put the DWP in the dock with the Tattooist Brendan McCarthy I say.  
    The DWP used fully qualified and registered assessors. If the OP cannot find the nurse on the register it is likely because he isn't searching the correct name.
  • pamela1962pamela1962 Posts: 23Member Listener
    I used the correct name in the search and also checked with the NMC . The name of the nurse was on the back of the report..... There was no error. Therefore I disagree with you.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    ilovecats said:

    The DWP used fully qualified and registered assessors. If the OP cannot find the nurse on the register it is likely because he isn't searching the correct name.

    You say that but we don't know that for sure. The one thing I do know for sure is, he HCP report I got had no name on it, I think one of the reasons for that is, the HCP is not registered with the GMC or nurses council, she is a physiotherapist. Now what qualifications does a physio have to assess medical conditions? none whatsoever!

    So don't tell me the DWP uses "fully qualified" medical staff, if anything they use the least medically qualified staff and in my case a physio with no medical qualifications at all.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    ilovecats said:

    The DWP used fully qualified and registered assessors. If the OP cannot find the nurse on the register it is likely because he isn't searching the correct name.

    You say that but we don't know that for sure. The one thing I do know for sure is, he HCP report I got had no name on it, I think one of the reasons for that is, the HCP is not registered with the GMC or nurses council, she is a physiotherapist. Now what qualifications does a physio have to assess medical conditions? none whatsoever!

    So don't tell me the DWP uses "fully qualified" medical staff, if anything they use the least medically qualified staff and in my case a physio with no medical qualifications at all.
    A physiotherapist is probably more qualified than most to see certain physical conditions and assess mobility.

    A physio has to have a degree and is also registered with the HCPC, the same way paramedics and occupational al therapists are.

    All the HCP’s go through the same training programme which I assure you is not easy and the people who are not cut out for it won’t make it to the end.

    I feel that I am probably in a better position to comment on the qualifications and suitability of assessors as I used to be one, I am registered with the HCPC and am aware of the high standards the governing body requires. So I do know it for sure.

    Im not saying there aren’t errant assessors who fall short of standards but tarring all of them with the same brush isn’t fair. I used to work incredibly hard to enough people who genuinely needed it got the award they deserved. 
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    I used the correct name in the search and also checked with the NMC . The name of the nurse was on the back of the report..... There was no error. Therefore I disagree with you.
    If that is the case then I would raise a concern. There is a possibility that the registration has lapsed and it that case they shouldn’t be working. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    So a physio is more qualified than my GP, is that what you are saying?
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    So a physio is more qualified than my GP, is that what you are saying?
    Your GP is more qualified to diagnose and give medical advice.

    GP’s are not best placed to describe how you condition affects you. The majority of GP evidence that I have seen submitted is just a rehashing of what the patient believes are their symptoms which is also what they write on the PIP form.

    I understand this is frustrating and doesn’t make sense but I promise you that even if GP’s underwent the same analytical training course and then following the descriptor application guidelines, the results would largely be the same.

  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    It is nice to speak to someone on the other side of the fence. Ok, last question, is a physio qualified to assess mental health?
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    edited February 12
    It is nice to speak to someone on the other side of the fence. Ok, last question, is a physio qualified to assess mental health?
    All HCP’s are good at different things.

    Paramedics are generally good at most things, particularly mental health and for nurses it would depend on their speciality. OT’s are very knowledgable about how physical conditions affect people’s ability and physios are obviously good at physical conditions and how movement is affected.

    All HCP’s have to do mental health training regardless of specialty when they join and complete regular mental health updates. There are strict criteria to follow and any decision to score where overwhelming psychological distress occurs is normally run past a senior clinical manger. This is because criteria is update regularly in response to feedback.

    Naturally, some people are better at mental health than others but that is also true of speciality mental health nurses. Some are wonderfully compassionate and others are stony faced and uncaring. It very much depends on who you see.

    You might be interested to know that you cannot legally call yourself a nurse, paramedic, OT, physio without being registered. They are protected titles and it’s against the law to call yourself one if you aren’t qualified and on the register
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    It worries me that you think GP's are rehashing what a patient thinks the symptoms are, when that is not how the system works at all. When a patient sees a GP for x y z problems, the GP prescribes various medications for those conditions. When there is no improvement, the patient is referred to a specialist. The specialist will confirm if said condition exists and prescribes medication more suitable for that condition, the specialist will also tell the patient whether the condition can be cured or not, usually not.

    Then along comes someone to assess you who believes your GP is simply repeating what you told your GP, the assessor ignores the mountain of medical letters you sent in, or does not see them as they are often removed from the ESA50, and you are left scratching your head wondering why you got 0 points.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    It worries me that you think GP's are rehashing what a patient thinks the symptoms are, when that is not how the system works at all. When a patient sees a GP for x y z problems, the GP prescribes various medications for those conditions. When there is no improvement, the patient is referred to a specialist. The specialist will confirm if said condition exists and prescribes medication more suitable for that condition, the specialist will also tell the patient whether the condition can be cured or not, usually not.

    Then along comes someone to assess you who believes your GP is simply repeating what you told your GP, the assessor ignores the mountain of medical letters you sent in, or does not see them as they are often removed from the ESA50, and you are left scratching your head wondering why you got 0 points.
    Near enough every letter I have ever read from a GP states “mr xxx says that he cannot . . . Mr xxx feels unable to . . .” It is rare to find a letter that offers a useful opinion of how functional ability is affected. 

    I’d say about 95% of the time, the GP evidence just confirms the condition and symptoms. Which isn’t helpful for the purposes of PIP.

    That is not presenting a medics opinion, it’s rewriting what the patient has said.

    I fully understand how the system works, having worked within it for many years, and having been unwell myself and also having a terminally ill family member. I have read hundreds, if not thousands of GP, specialist consultant, mental health, physio, hospital discharge letters and reports. The quality is hugely variable.

    I would like to ask that perhaps you would reconsider that I know what I am talking about. I would never advise anyone on here if I didn’t feel qualified to do so.

    If you look through some of my other posts you will see I have detailed why it may appear that medical evidence may not have been read by the assessors.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    That is the new fangled way of looking at it, if I used the same criteria that you use, I could walk into any hospital and declare 90% of the patients fit for work. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    When i recently filled in a PIP review form for my daughter on the front of the form it had 2 lists of what to send and what not to send... on the list of what they didn't want to see was a letter from a GP as evidence. Why? well a letter from a GP is mostly patient lead because a GP spends very limited amount of time with a patient and doesn't know enough of how their conditions affect them against the PIP descriptors. A GP will only know what you tell them, which means it's patient lead.

    The only information a GP can give is what medication they take, a diagnosis if any and any appointments they've recently had. So, i agree with ilovecats.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    That is the new fangled way of looking at it, if I used the same criteria that you use, I could walk into any hospital and declare 90% of the patients fit for work. 
    I believe you just keep missing the point. I have explained everything clearly and fear that no matter what anyone says you will stick to your point of view.

    PIP is not about declaring people fit for work. 

    Thank you @poppy123456 for supporting what I said. Ever sensible information as always
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    My GP has known me for many years, hardly what I would call a limited amount of time. I also pointed out it is not just your GP's opinion that counts. If my GP was to write a letter on my behalf, it certainly wouldn't contain my personal opinion, what would be the point of that? When I ask for a letter from my GP, I expect it to contain information about diagnosis made in reference to my health conditions. 







  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 12
    My GP has known me for many years, hardly what I would call a limited amount of time. I also pointed out it is not just your GP's opinion that counts. If my GP was to write a letter on my behalf, it certainly wouldn't contain my personal opinion, what would be the point of that? When I ask for a letter from my GP, I expect it to contain information about diagnosis made in reference to my health conditions. 


    OK put it another way to turn the tables round. If you took along a print out of all of the PIP descriptors together with the guidance manual as to what each descriptors means and handed it to your GP do you seriously suggest that he/she would not only know about you to that extent that they could identify which descriptor applies, explaining why it does, giving a couple of examples of what happened in your life and then producing evidence to back up those answers without having to ask you any questions? I doubt it. Does my GP know that I used to fall off the toilet when cleaning myself, does he know how far I can walk reliably, does he know how I manage to dress and undress myself, does he know what happens when I try to get out of the bath without me having to tell him any of the answers beforehand?
    I doubt it. He doesn't see me except at the surgery maybe 3/4 times a year so would have no idea about how my life is impacted UNLESS I tell him.
    Than that becomes 3rd hand information - my patient says...…...not worth the paper it is written on as it is not based on something that he has seen evidence of it happening first hand.

    Finally having a diagnosis means nothing to anybody - in fact you can get a PIP award and have no diagnosis.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    edited February 12
    My GP has known me for many years, hardly what I would call a limited amount of time. I also pointed out it is not just your GP's opinion that counts. If my GP was to write a letter on my behalf, it certainly wouldn't contain my personal opinion, what would be the point of that? When I ask for a letter from my GP, I expect it to contain information about diagnosis made in reference to my health conditions


    At no point have I ever stated that it is just your GP's opinion that counts.

    I see my GP for anxiety and have spent a lot of time telling him how I feel, what upsets me and hell; he has seen my ugly cry my little heart out on more that one occasion. It doesn't mean that he would have ANY idea on how anything I have told him impacts my functional ability. What he would be able to do is write a letter telling the assessor how I said I feel. It isn't helpful.

    FUNCTIONAL ABILITY is the key phrase.
    As an assessor, I don't care if you have 20 confirmed diagnosis or 1.
    I don't care if you have 60 appointment letters for different clinics.
    I don't care if a GP says that: "The patient reports he cannot do this". 
    None of that information is helpful.
    What an assessor cares about about is a detailed description in the PIP2 of how your condition affects your functional ability
    I care about if you are scheduled to have surgery or go to counselling, as it will affect your functional ability.
    If the GP writes a letter stating  "I have assessed Mr xxxx and found he has a limited range of movement in his knees and I believe this impacts his ability to walk for more that xx metres". That is writing about functional ability, again, this is very rare for a GP to do.

    Also, for your information, Atos and Capita do actually make requests for further information to GP's when they are trying to complete a paper based assessment prior to inviting someone to a face to face. 

    This is called a GP Factual Report and it requests the diagnosis and history of conditions, medication, previous, current and planned treatment and referrals made.

    At the end of the report there is a whole sectional entitled "Please give your medical opinion on how your patient's functional ability is affected". 
    It even lists examples e.g. cooking, cleaning, washing etc to prompt the GP.
    I bet you cannot guess what sectional is 9/10 times left completely blank? 
    Yes, you guess it, the FUNCTIONAL ABILITY section.
    They just don't know.

    (Sometimes it is filled out by a receptionist and that is if they even bother to return the request for information at all)
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    @Benistmonk -I wonder if you might be missing the point here? I think that most people, and this probably includes HCPs assessing PIP, will accept a diagnosis that GPs make. But that's not what PIP is about - it's about what impact a condition has on you.GPs are exactly that - general practitioners. They know a little bit about lots of things.

    I didn't put anything from my GP when I started my claim..... for the very reason the @poppy123456 has just said which is he would be telling you what i'd just told him.

    More useful - in my case and I suggest in most cases- was a report from a specialist Occupational Health consultant. he made no diagnosis - he accepted the word of other clinicians - but he did explain exactly why I could no longer carry out certain functions and, consequently, why I could not continue in employment. 

    Interestingly his report has very little mention of "He told me this" because it is based almost exclusively on his own examination and opinion.....
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:

    OK put it another way to turn the tables round. If you took along a print out of all of the PIP descriptors together with the guidance manual as to what each descriptors means and handed it to your GP do you seriously suggest that he/she would not only know about you to that extent that they could identify which descriptor applies, explaining why it does, giving a couple of examples of what happened in your life and then producing evidence to back up those answers without having to ask you any questions? I doubt it. Does my GP know that I used to fall off the toilet when cleaning myself, does he know how far I can walk reliably, does he know how I manage to dress and undress myself, does he know what happens when I try to get out of the bath without me having to tell him any of the answers beforehand?
    I doubt it. He doesn't see me except at the surgery maybe 3/4 times a year.


    Thank you @Yadnad I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall here.
    Some people are determined not to accept the truth because it doesn't fit their belief that the assessors are the devil's minions. 

  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @Benistmonk -I wonder if you might be missing the point here? I think that most people, and this probably includes HCPs assessing PIP, will accept a diagnosis that GPs make. But that's not what PIP is about - it's about what impact a condition has on you.GPs are exactly that - general practitioners. They know a little bit about lots of things.

    I didn't put anything from my GP when I started my claim..... for the very reason the @poppy123456 has just said which is he would be telling you what i'd just told him.

    More useful - in my case and I suggest in most cases- was a report from a specialist Occupational Health consultant. he made no diagnosis - he accepted the word of other clinicians - but he did explain exactly why I could no longer carry out certain functions and, consequently, why I could not continue in employment. 

    Interestingly his report has very little mention of "He told me this" because it is based almost exclusively on his own examination and opinion.....
    You are 100% correct. An OT report is very valuable and often always contains high quality, personally formulated medical opinion.

    GP's generally speaking, are just gatekeepers to more valuable resources.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:

    OK put it another way to turn the tables round. If you took along a print out of all of the PIP descriptors together with the guidance manual as to what each descriptors means and handed it to your GP do you seriously suggest that he/she would not only know about you to that extent that they could identify which descriptor applies, explaining why it does, giving a couple of examples of what happened in your life and then producing evidence to back up those answers without having to ask you any questions? I doubt it. Does my GP know that I used to fall off the toilet when cleaning myself, does he know how far I can walk reliably, does he know how I manage to dress and undress myself, does he know what happens when I try to get out of the bath without me having to tell him any of the answers beforehand?
    I doubt it. He doesn't see me except at the surgery maybe 3/4 times a year.



    Lets put it another way, don't be silly, GP's have real jobs, they are not lackys for the DWP.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    ilovecats said:

    I believe you just keep missing the point. I have explained everything clearly and fear that no matter what anyone says you will stick to your point of view.



    Correct, now do I qualify?
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    Lets put it another way, don't be silly, GP's have real jobs, they are not lackys for the DWP.
    I give up.

    You believe what you want to believe and I'll rest safe in the knowledge that I am trying to support people on here by providing factual and accurate information.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    edited February 12
    Apologies for hijacking this thread!
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    ilovecats said:



    Correct, now do I qualify?
    Based on a report from a GP, no.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    Correct, now do I qualify?
    Based on a report from a GP, no.
    :smiley:
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    I think this thread has been very informative, so if hijacking is what it takes to get the correct info, then long may it continue. :)
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    Can we get back to the original thread please.

    @ilovecats I can't find any trace of you on any of the professional registers.

    Is it the usual spelling of "lovecats" or have you changed it slightly??

    Or are you not registered at all?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I didn't even put a GP contact name on my daughters first PIP claim or the review form. Why not? because her GP doesn't have a clue how her conditions affect her.

    He doesn't know that she needs support for cooking, bathing, dressing/undressing, budgeting decisions, reading and understanding signs and symbols,  engaging with others and following and planning a journey. The only thing he could tell them is that she has a diagnosis of ASD, learning disability and social anxiety disorder, none of which is very helpful at all in telling a HCP or DWP how her conditions affect her.

    Detailed assessment reports from the Community Mental Health and a learning disability team have been sent to support her claim.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    That question has been answered in the first couple of posts, there is nothing more to say on the subject. Just in case anyone has forgot, the answer is yes, nurses must be registered to assess you.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    ilovecats said:
    Apologies for hijacking this thread!
    No need to apologies for giving great factual advice. :)
  • wilkowilko Posts: 1,739Member Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats, what a lot of sense you have been posting honest and to the point. The truth hurts some times and as others have said GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth testing, scans ect. As a MS sufferer my GP said he didn’t know much about my condition but I was in the care of a specialist MS nurse and a neurologist and Neuro, physo who knew what I had before being given my official diagnosis by the symptoms I was presenting to her. So sending doctors letter is a waste of time get the big gun involved, the consultant, your physo, the OH and those who can bring credibility to your conditions and functionality. Hope we see a lot more of you posting Ilovecats, in the coming months.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    Yes, get the whole lot involved because the DWP thinks GP letters only contain patients opinions. Then wait for a tribunal to decide because the DWP can't be bothered to read specialists letters.
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    @Benistmonk ...you're not really going to change your mind are you?
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    Can we get back to the original thread please.

    @ilovecats I can't find any trace of you on any of the professional registers.

    Is it the usual spelling of "lovecats" or have you changed it slightly??

    Or are you not registered at all?
    Well if you cannot find me I must be an imposter! 
  • djbantiquesdjbantiques Posts: 43Member Connected
    So your GPs opinion counts very little because they don't see you enough to know how your conditions affect you but the assessors opinion is 100% correct on what you can and can not do based on a 30 -60 minute interview.
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    Dr says hello how can I help you . Patient says it doesn't matter they wont believe you anyway 😂
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    wilko said:
    @ilovecats, what a lot of sense you have been posting honest and to the point. The truth hurts some times and as others have said GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth testing, scans ect. As a MS sufferer my GP said he didn’t know much about my condition but I was in the care of a specialist MS nurse and a neurologist and Neuro, physo who knew what I had before being given my official diagnosis by the symptoms I was presenting to her. So sending doctors letter is a waste of time get the big gun involved, the consultant, your physo, the OH and those who can bring credibility to your conditions and functionality. Hope we see a lot more of you posting Ilovecats, in the coming months.
    Thank you. I will do the best I can to provide helpful information! 
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    So your GPs opinion counts very little because they don't see you enough to know how your conditions affect you but the assessors opinion is 100% correct on what you can and can not do based on a 30 -60 minute interview.
    If they have a medical opinion based on evidence then it counts for a lot. Most GP’s do not though. 

    Asessors are not always 100% correct. We all know that. I used to be one and I freely admit that. 

    Assessors are better placed to analyse all the information given to them and gained from the assessment to make an educated choice in advising a functional descriptor as they have been trained to do so.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    It's clear that we are going round in circles here and i don't have the energy to continue this discussion any further, i'm out.
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    Yes it's like the mad hatters tea party 
  • frecklesfreckles Posts: 258Member Pioneering
    I would like to say the whole pip form needs updating half of it for me is based on cooking toilet needs can you get in and out of the bath or shower unaided or using a microwave yes i understand those questions are correct but what about other needs like autism and serious lung diseases one of the questions is can you walk more than 50 metres unaided well my answer is i dont carry a measuring tape out with me but no i car,nt because i get out of breath i even showed the assessor my clubbed finger nails she put in report that my fingernails were clean so obviously has,nt got a clue about idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis which is a deadly illness and as for gp letters who else no,s your health better than a G.P or consultant so to the person who use to be a H.C.P i,d say yeah 90% of assesors are clueless who don,t care as long as they bow down and get there bonuses off the corrupt DWP
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Sorry but I must post this before I go to bed.
    The descriptors were chosen to represent what the majority of disabled people have problems with. They were as a result of a whole host of recognised agencies and charities that specifically work with the disabled. So you are right and everybody else is wrong!
    I will also take you up on one more point. Pulmonary Fibrosis is not a deadly disease. I have had it along with Asthma for a few years now. No one including my GP has said that I am going to die from it. Yes it is something you have to live with but taking the right medication you should live for a normal life span.
    Yes you get out of breath, but you are not going to keel over any time soon. In fact I didn't even mention either of those on my PIP2 forms as they are not important in the grand scheme of things. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    So your GPs opinion counts very little because they don't see you enough to know how your conditions affect you but the assessors opinion is 100% correct on what you can and can not do based on a 30 -60 minute interview.

    Assessors know it all, they can tell if you are fit for work by looking at descriptors. It takes up to 16 years to become a GP, and 3 to 4 years to become a nurse. Is it any wonder why people like me think the whole system is corrupt, nurses who think they know more than GP's, you couldn't make it up. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    edited February 13
    freckles said:
    I would like to say the whole pip form needs updating half of it for me is based on cooking toilet needs can you get in and out of the bath or shower unaided or using a microwave yes i understand those questions are correct but what about other needs like autism and serious lung diseases one of the questions is can you walk more than 50 metres unaided well my answer is i dont carry a measuring tape out with me but no i car,nt because i get out of breath i even showed the assessor my clubbed finger nails she put in report that my fingernails were clean so obviously has,nt got a clue about idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis which is a deadly illness and as for gp letters who else no,s your health better than a G.P or consultant so to the person who use to be a H.C.P i,d say yeah 90% of assesors are clueless who don,t care as long as they bow down and get there bonuses off the corrupt DWP

    Well said Freckles, I couldn't agree more. Now you see what we are up against, nurses who have the cheek to belittle GP's who are eminently more qualified that they will ever be. Actually I will leave that last comment out, it might not fit in with the descriptors.

  • user1234user1234 Posts: 2Member Listener
    yadnad - Pulmonary Fibrosis is considered a fatal disease so hows it not deadly?
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    @benistmonk and @freckles -  you seem to be having difficulty with this so I'll summarise:

    No-one is belittling GPs. 

    They are highly trained

    They are not trained in how conditions which they diagnose (because they are highly trained!) impact on a patients day to day life

    The evidence that they submit a lot of the time (but not all the time) is of limited value because it relates to a diagnosis, not a patient's consequent loss of functionality (which, for PIP purposes, is the important bit)


  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    user1234 said:
    yadnad - Pulmonary Fibrosis is considered a fatal disease so hows it not deadly?
    Everything will kill you eventually.

    Someone can live with pulmonary fibrosis for many years. 

    For the purposes of PIP, unless it affects your functional ability then having the diagnosis is not enough to score.
  • frecklesfreckles Posts: 258Member Pioneering
    That sounds very patronising!!!!!! please explain to me what functional ability means in full as i must be clueless
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    What's patronising about it? Your functional ability means your ability to preform daily activities such as, washing, dressing, cooking, managing toilet needs, communicating etc.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 11,912Community champion Disability Gamechanger
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    So your GPs opinion counts very little because they don't see you enough to know how your conditions affect you but the assessors opinion is 100% correct on what you can and can not do based on a 30 -60 minute interview.

    What has medical training to be a GP got to do with assessing someone against set criteria as to whether they are able to do some work or are disabled enough to qualify for PIP?
    GP's have an opinion and that is why they issue a sick note, but they are not in a position to test that opinion against the descriptors that make up ESA and PIP.

  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    user1234 said:
    yadnad - Pulmonary Fibrosis is considered a fatal disease so hows it not deadly?
    First of all you have to identify the type of disease (PF covers a whole host of conditions). Not all are serious conditions that can lead to an early death.
    It's like saying that you have cancer without identifying the particular type of cancer it is.

    PF by itself is not a life threatening condition - the type of condition you have within that general diagnosis may well be life limiting (rare) to just a mild irritation that you can live with.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    freckles said:
    That sounds very patronising!!!!!! please explain to me what functional ability means in full as i must be clueless
    My comment is patronising but you writing that assessors are “clueless and corrupt” isn’t? 

    Pot kettle black my friend.
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    You talk about scoring points like its a football match I no what it's like to go to work I've been doing it for over 40 years in all situations and conditions rain and shine and all hours . Then when I became ill I got some jumped up person who saw me for 20 minutes typed a few things and said I could to some sort of work . Some people on here are very good at shoving technical stuff down our throats in fact they could get a job working for nasa but when it comes to pure raw human feelings and emotions and care for others well being I score them a big fat zero . I've never heard such a load of hogwash perhaps we should get rid of doctors and next time we are ill just phone the Dwp for an appointment and see someone we've never met 
  • frecklesfreckles Posts: 258Member Pioneering
    No i said the DWP are corrupt and 90%of assessors are clueless when you have ipf and your seeing your consultant and he says my finger nails are clubbed and that is a bad sign then yes i would expect an assesor to no that as well as how can they assess people with disabilities when they are not even qualified in that area a nurse whos qualified in physiotherepy is not going to no about IPF or MENTAL ILLNESS its like having a chef repairing a car
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    Well said freckles nice to meet you 
  • frecklesfreckles Posts: 258Member Pioneering
    Nice to meet you two
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    Hello love cats hope your well I see you were an assessor at some time I saw a young lady at my assessment . Could I ask you what training you had and understanding of the issues of a 63 year old man suffering with penile cancer please thank you . 
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    wilko said:
    @ilovecats, what a lot of sense you have been posting honest and to the point. The truth hurts some times and as others have said GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth testing, scans ect. As a MS sufferer my GP said he didn’t know much about my condition but I was in the care of a specialist MS nurse and a neurologist and Neuro, physo who knew what I had before being given my official diagnosis by the symptoms I was presenting to her. So sending doctors letter is a waste of time get the big gun involved, the consultant, your physo, the OH and those who can bring credibility to your conditions and functionality. Hope we see a lot more of you posting Ilovecats, in the coming months.
    Hi okay then you put this down GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth report then you tell me how then can preson doing the assessment can come up with there point of view and not read the medical report a think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are wrong as this has happened to me so who is right the person doing the assessment or a Doctor and Consuitants i know whos word i think is right so answer that one 
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    Hello Gerald I'm still waiting for my answer from love cats as she said she's here to help and give us informative information. Hope your well 👍
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    Hello love cats hope your well I see you were an assessor at some time I saw a young lady at my assessment . Could I ask you what training you had and understanding of the issues of a 63 year old man suffering with penile cancer please thank you . 
    I don’t think it matters what I say, if I explain my training, my degree, my work history, my personal experiences with cancer. I think you have made up your mind. I won’t be responding to any hostility in the future, only sensible questions.
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    edited February 13
    Hello Gerald I'm still waiting for my answer from love cats as she said she's here to help and give us informative information. Hope your well 👍
    Hello clarkjohnson I get the felling that if you put a point of view down that helps someone with a disability and not the PIP assessment with there point of view and not read the medical report and think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are not so is there a point or no point sending in this evidence you tell me.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    freckles said:
    No i said the DWP are corrupt and 90%of assessors are clueless when you have ipf and your seeing your consultant and he says my finger nails are clubbed and that is a bad sign then yes i would expect an assesor to no that as well as how can they assess people with disabilities when they are not even qualified in that area a nurse whos qualified in physiotherepy is not going to no about IPF or MENTAL ILLNESS its like having a chef repairing a car
    For someone to screen for mental health issues, the majority of the assessment is down to observation. There are many mini MSE types of forms, but all follow along the same path - how they talk, how they sit, how they look and how they respond. There is no need to be qualified in a Mental Health setting - you just tick boxes on what you see and hear.

    I was presented with 14 reasons in my assessment reports as to why I did not gain one point for any impact that had a mental issue behind it. There can be no denying that a claimant may well have a diagnosed mental health problem. What the assessor has to gauge is how it should manifest itself when considering the descriptors.

    In my case I also have a lifelong DWP disability award (IIDB) - lost 40% of my normal mental health capabilities due to an acquired physical brain injury and PTSD, this was assessed by a doctor appointed by the DWP as far back as 1995 to start with and lately reviewed in 2011. However the issues that plague me due to this disability do not fit neatly into any of the PIP descriptors.
    As has been said many times you may well have some very serious disabilities but if they do not fit perfectly with enough descriptors you will not get an award. On the other hand someone with mild disabilities that do impact on their life AND fit enough descriptors they will get an award.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Hello love cats hope your well I see you were an assessor at some time I saw a young lady at my assessment . Could I ask you what training you had and understanding of the issues of a 63 year old man suffering with penile cancer please thank you . 
    The issues and how it impacts on the way you live your life should have been put down on the claim form. It is not for the assessor to do the work for you although I too have approached three PIP assessments with that same attitude.
    All the assessor has to do is (a) are the issues and impact you have written about reasonable given the circumstances/diagnosis (b) if so how do those issues and impact fit with any descriptors.
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    Hi ilovecats okay then you put this down in a post GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth report then you tell me how then can person doing the assessment can come up with there point of view and not read the medical report a think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are wrong as this has happened to me so who is right the person doing the assessment or a Doctor and Consuitants i know whos word i think is right so answer that one as i think this is a sensible question and not a hostile question Thank you.
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    If I can wind this back to @pamela1962's original point (if anyone remembers that!!) ....

    I checked on three family members who are on various medical registers...the result - I can find one easily, the other two are a bit more difficult (don't know exactly why ..might be something to do with Capital letters or something?)

    Might be worth considering if you can't find someone on the register - I would have assumed that my daughter wasn't registered...if i didn't know for a fact that she is......
  • frecklesfreckles Posts: 258Member Pioneering
    Its not hostility lovecats its people airing there views and as you use to be an HCP you can imagine how people are feelings when they feel HCP have lied in there reports and the DWP are making a mockery of the benefit system yes not all HCP,s are bad but the ones who are have left people to not to have any faith or belief in pip assements and let the system down people go to a lot of trouble to get medical evidence and its like its not believed maybe you are trying to give people on here help but the way things are with trust between assesors and the DWP is at an all time low 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Gerald said:

    Hi okay then you put this down GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth report then you tell me how then can preson doing the assessment can come up with there point of view and not read the medical report a think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are wrong as this has happened to me so who is right the person doing the assessment or a Doctor and Consuitants i know whos word i think is right so answer that one 
    What GP or Consultant that you know has given you a report on the findings of tests as to how the impact you say you have fits in with the PIP descriptors? None I would assume. Likewise you are not going to expect a PIP assessor to examine you, diagnose an issue and offer treatment for it. 
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:

    Hi okay then you put this down GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth report then you tell me how then can preson doing the assessment can come up with there point of view and not read the medical report a think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are wrong as this has happened to me so who is right the person doing the assessment or a Doctor and Consuitants i know whos word i think is right so answer that one 
    What GP or Consultant that you know has given you a report on the findings of tests as to how the impact you say you have fits in with the PIP descriptors? None I would assume. Likewise you are not going to expect a PIP assessor to examine you, diagnose an issue and offer treatment for it. 
    Hi Yadnad okay then how can a PIP assessor come up with there point of view is right and not reports from a Doctor and Consuitants report as i have a stoma which is a hole in my side which is all so called a colostomy, were one end of the colon is pulled out through a cut in your tummy and stitched to the skin to create a stoma and have a colostomy bag to collect your poo (stools) so how can a PIP assessor put down that no aids are needed to help you to manage toilet needs or  incontinence of either bladder or bowel you tell me is this right the assessor or a Doctor and Consuitants.
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    Gerald said:
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:

    Hi okay then you put this down GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth report then you tell me how then can preson doing the assessment can come up with there point of view and not read the medical report a think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are wrong as this has happened to me so who is right the person doing the assessment or a Doctor and Consuitants i know whos word i think is right so answer that one 
    What GP or Consultant that you know has given you a report on the findings of tests as to how the impact you say you have fits in with the PIP descriptors? None I would assume. Likewise you are not going to expect a PIP assessor to examine you, diagnose an issue and offer treatment for it. 
    Hi Yadnad okay then how can a PIP assessor come up with there point of view is right and not reports from a Doctor and Consuitants report as i have a stoma which is a hole in my side which is all so called a colostomy, were one end of the colon is pulled out through a cut in your tummy and stitched to the skin to create a stoma and have a colostomy bag to collect your poo (stools) so how can a PIP assessor put down that no aids are needed to help you to manage toilet needs or  incontinence of either bladder or bowel you tell me is this right the assessor or a Doctor and Consuitants.
    A colostomy bag that you can manage yourself is a B - requires aids. If that is not what you were awarded then contest it.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @benistmonk and @freckles -  you seem to be having difficulty with this so I'll summarise:

    No-one is belittling GPs. 

    They are highly trained

    They are not trained in how conditions which they diagnose (because they are highly trained!) impact on a patients day to day life

    The evidence that they submit a lot of the time (but not all the time) is of limited value because it relates to a diagnosis, not a patient's consequent loss of functionality (which, for PIP purposes, is the important bit)




    I am totally amazed that you think GP's do not know how conditions impact a patients life when half their daily workload involves home visits to patients who can't get to the surgery. 
  • ilovecatsilovecats Posts: 930Member Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @benistmonk and @freckles -  you seem to be having difficulty with this so I'll summarise:

    No-one is belittling GPs. 

    They are highly trained

    They are not trained in how conditions which they diagnose (because they are highly trained!) impact on a patients day to day life

    The evidence that they submit a lot of the time (but not all the time) is of limited value because it relates to a diagnosis, not a patient's consequent loss of functionality (which, for PIP purposes, is the important bit)




    I am totally amazed that you think GP's do not know how conditions impact a patients life when half their daily workload involves home visits to patients who can't get to the surgery. 
    Pardon my french, but b*$€@&;*s! That is just not true.

    A GP has such an immense workload that they rarely leave the practice!

    If you can get a GP to come and visit you at home then you must share the secret because if have spend hours of my professional life trying to convince GP’s to come and see elderly and vulnerable patients at home at 90% of the time they make you take them to hospital even if it isn’t in their best interest because they don’t want to or don’t have the time to come out!

    If on the rare occasion they agree that a home visit is necessary, it is normally a paramedic or nurse practitioner that does the home assessments.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:

    What has medical training to be a GP got to do with assessing someone against set criteria as to whether they are able to do some work or are disabled enough to qualify for PIP?
    GP's have an opinion and that is why they issue a sick note, but they are not in a position to test that opinion against the descriptors that make up ESA and PIP.


    Sham assessments have no place in a civilised society, read the UN report, all these assessment do is cause hardship and despair for the poorest people in society. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    ilovecats said:

    Pardon my french, but b*$€@&;*s! That is just not true.

    A GP has such an immense workload that they rarely leave the practice!

    If you can get a GP to come and visit you at home then you must share the secret because if have spend hours of my professional life trying to convince GP’s to come and see elderly and vulnerable patients at home at 90% of the time they make you take them to hospital even if it isn’t in their best interest because they don’t want to or don’t have the time to come out!

    If on the rare occasion they agree that a home visit is necessary, it is normally a paramedic or nurse practitioner that does the home assessments.


    OMG! what a thing to say because it does not fit in with your narrative. My GP spends more than half her time out of the surgery on home visits, I know that for a fact because I have often had to wait for an appointment. She would always apologise for being late due to her rounds. It was not unusual for her to work very late in the evening, regularly past 6.30pm and on one occasion I was seen at 7.15pm.
  • wildlifewildlife Posts: 1,316Member Pioneering
    @ilovecats, You were obviously a good assessor, although I find it worrying that you don't consider the medical conditions themselves to be of any importance when assessing claimants. Presenting a diagnosis from a GP or hospital specialist whether from symptoms presented or tests should be respected as hugely significant to assessing the impact the condition has on functional ability and is the only thing a claimant can do to convince the assessor and the DWP that their disability is genuine. Otherwise anyone could walk into an assessment and say they couldn't do whatever you were asking them about. i have a neuroma in my left foot diagnosed by tests therefore it is painful to walk. The alternative scenario is I limp into the assessment and say I have pain when I walk. 
       Also perhaps you could explain to me why my assessor felt it necessary to alter a full A4 sheet i.e. the whole lot of my Muscular Skeletal Examination results from what I actually did and she made up results for the one's I wasn't asked to do? This gave her an argument to then say I didn't need help with most of the personal care activities because and I quote straight from my report "The MSO showed she had slight reduction in power bilaterally to her legs and a slight reduction in spinal flexion. All upper limb movements and power were normal." An example being that I just touched the top of my thighs wwith difficulty, her result stated I was able to touch my knees. 
       You can tell us till you're blue in the face how the job of an assessor should be done and even how you did it but to those of us who've been subjected to a report that is very different from what was said and done in the assessment room you can't expect to be responded to with "how nice" or "yes you're right" type of comments.  
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    ilovecats said:
    Gerald said:
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:

    Hi okay then you put this down GPs are just that not specialists in any one field of medicine hence why we are refered to hospitals to see consultants for in depth report then you tell me how then can preson doing the assessment can come up with there point of view and not read the medical report a think that they are right and the Doctors and Consuitants report are wrong as this has happened to me so who is right the person doing the assessment or a Doctor and Consuitants i know whos word i think is right so answer that one 
    What GP or Consultant that you know has given you a report on the findings of tests as to how the impact you say you have fits in with the PIP descriptors? None I would assume. Likewise you are not going to expect a PIP assessor to examine you, diagnose an issue and offer treatment for it. 
    Hi Yadnad okay then how can a PIP assessor come up with there point of view is right and not reports from a Doctor and Consuitants report as i have a stoma which is a hole in my side which is all so called a colostomy, were one end of the colon is pulled out through a cut in your tummy and stitched to the skin to create a stoma and have a colostomy bag to collect your poo (stools) so how can a PIP assessor put down that no aids are needed to help you to manage toilet needs or  incontinence of either bladder or bowel you tell me is this right the assessor or a Doctor and Consuitants.
    A colostomy bag that you can manage yourself is a B - requires aids. If that is not what you were awarded then contest it.
    Hi ilovecats  and that is my point how can someone in a PIP assessment in a assessment that lasted  20mins think they know more and are right and that  a Doctor and Consuitants. report this is wrong and i was not awarded a point ( 0 ) and as the PIP assessment report from the PIP assessor was that i do not need no aids or aid to manage toilet needs or incontinence bowel and can't be bothered to read specialists letters and then end up at going to a tribunal and win with your tribunal hearing at the last count it was 70% or more that win there tribunal  so that shows how good a job there doing in there assessments and as for the tribunal i am going to one when i get a date and that is from ( FEB 2018 ) and still know date or word on that all that for a PIP assessment report from the PIP assessor that was wrong and not just on this point there was much that the assessor put in is report that was wrong but its okay as there will be know come back on the assessor just keep them numbers up getting the Disabled people off this benefit we will keep paying you your bonus .
  • keirakeira Posts: 129Member Courageous
    Hello love cats hope your well I see you were an assessor at some time I saw a young lady at my assessment . Could I ask you what training you had and understanding of the issues of a 63 year old man suffering with penile cancer please thank you . 

    Latest post at http://secretassessor.co.uk  "Don't believe the Hype", contains all the medical training material provided in my time. Just explained to a chap who enquired about Crohn's, that's when the assessor is on Wikipedia 10 mins before your assessment.

    7:10 AM - 13 Feb 2019
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Gerald said:
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:


    What GP or Consultant that you know has given you a report on the findings of tests as to how the impact you say you have fits in with the PIP descriptors? None I would assume. Likewise you are not going to expect a PIP assessor to examine you, diagnose an issue and offer treatment for it. 
    Hi Yadnad okay then how can a PIP assessor come up with there point of view is right and not reports from a Doctor and Consuitants report as i have a stoma which is a hole in my side which is all so called a colostomy, were one end of the colon is pulled out through a cut in your tummy and stitched to the skin to create a stoma and have a colostomy bag to collect your poo (stools) so how can a PIP assessor put down that no aids are needed to help you to manage toilet needs or  incontinence of either bladder or bowel you tell me is this right the assessor or a Doctor and Consuitants.
    I have put the question to you but have not a reply - your answer will explain the difference between the medical professional and the disability analyst.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    wildlife said:
    @ilovecats, You were obviously a good assessor, although I find it worrying that you don't consider the medical conditions themselves to be of any importance when assessing claimants. Presenting a diagnosis from a GP or hospital specialist whether from symptoms presented or tests should be respected as hugely significant to assessing the impact the condition has on functional ability and is the only thing a claimant can do to convince the assessor and the DWP that their disability is genuine. Otherwise anyone could walk into an assessment and say they couldn't do whatever you were asking them about. i have a neuroma in my left foot diagnosed by tests therefore it is painful to walk. The alternative scenario is I limp into the assessment and say I have pain when I walk. 
       Also perhaps you could explain to me why my assessor felt it necessary to alter a full A4 sheet i.e. the whole lot of my Muscular Skeletal Examination results from what I actually did and she made up results for the one's I wasn't asked to do? This gave her an argument to then say I didn't need help with most of the personal care activities because and I quote straight from my report "The MSO showed she had slight reduction in power bilaterally to her legs and a slight reduction in spinal flexion. All upper limb movements and power were normal." An example being that I just touched the top of my thighs wwith difficulty, her result stated I was able to touch my knees. 
       You can tell us till you're blue in the face how the job of an assessor should be done and even how you did it but to those of us who've been subjected to a report that is very different from what was said and done in the assessment room you can't expect to be responded to with "how nice" or "yes you're right" type of comments.  


    You hit the nail on the head. Medical letters are the only evidence a claimant can present, the fact that people like ilovecats disregards GP letters and passes them off as patients opinions is disgraceful, but it gives a glimpse of what goes on in the mind of an assessor who is paid to parrot the party line, which is to ignore medical conditions and base the results on how well you think a claimant can move. 

    When being assessed, you are not patients, you are claimants and must be assessed accordingly.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    cristobal said:
    @benistmonk and @freckles -  you seem to be having difficulty with this so I'll summarise:

    No-one is belittling GPs. 

    They are highly trained

    They are not trained in how conditions which they diagnose (because they are highly trained!) impact on a patients day to day life

    The evidence that they submit a lot of the time (but not all the time) is of limited value because it relates to a diagnosis, not a patient's consequent loss of functionality (which, for PIP purposes, is the important bit)




    I am totally amazed that you think GP's do not know how conditions impact a patients life when half their daily workload involves home visits to patients who can't get to the surgery. 
    As a clear example of the normal GP. I see them when I need some advice or intervention. Apart from that there is no need to bother them.
    My GP surgery knows absolutely nothing (other than what I may have told them in passing) about how I manage to live my life. No idea how far I can walk reliably, how I manage in the bath, how I manage whilst on the toilet, how I manage to dress and undress, how I get into and out of bed, how I struggle daily with face to face communication.
    To be truthful all of the above have nothing to do with a GP. Yes I had involvement with Social Services and their OT's but that was 7 years ago. That and other relevant evidence was sent in but the DWP decided against using it as it was clearly out of date.
     
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:

    What has medical training to be a GP got to do with assessing someone against set criteria as to whether they are able to do some work or are disabled enough to qualify for PIP?
    GP's have an opinion and that is why they issue a sick note, but they are not in a position to test that opinion against the descriptors that make up ESA and PIP.


    Sham assessments have no place in a civilised society, read the UN report, all these assessment do is cause hardship and despair for the poorest people in society.
    The UN report? I won't say anything more other than to point out that nobody of any significance in this country gave it the time of day.
  • clarkjohnsonclarkjohnson Posts: 209Member Pioneering
    Hello everyone. Hello love cats my question wasn't hostile and there's no need for swearing so I'll try again . How does a young girl in her 20 s no how the mental and physical strains encountered by a 63 year old following penile cancer would feel . In other words were you trained for that scenario a simple yes or no will be greatly appreciated. Thank you 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 13









    Hi ilovecats  and that is my point how can someone in a PIP assessment in a assessment that lasted  20mins think they know more and are right and that  a Doctor and Consuitants. report this is wrong and i was not awarded a point ( 0 ) and as the PIP assessment report from the PIP assessor was that i do not need no aids or aid to manage toilet needs or incontinence bowel and can't be bothered to read specialists letters and then end up at going to a tribunal and win with your tribunal hearing at the last count it was 70% or more that win there tribunal  so that shows how good a job there doing in there assessments and as for the tribunal i am going to one when i get a date and that is from ( FEB 2018 ) and still know date or word on that all that for a PIP assessment report from the PIP assessor that was wrong and not just on this point there was much that the assessor put in is report that was wrong but its okay as there will be know come back on the assessor just keep them numbers up getting the Disabled people off this benefit we will keep paying you your bonus .
    I have had 3 face to face assessments for PIP since 2013. All three downgraded the previous award (Enhanced Care & Mobility)  to 0 points. The reports were books of fiction. Do I blame the assessor? No. For a start it was my responsibility to fill out the claim forms correctly and fully - I failed, it was my responsibility to produce relevant and UP TO DATE evidence - I failed, it was my responsibility to explain in as much detail at the face to face assessment as I could about my issues - I failed and worse still antagonised the assessor to boot due to mental health issues.

    People should take responsibility for their failings before blaming everybody and anybody else including the assessors. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:



    The UN report? I won't say anything more other than to point out that nobody of any significance in this country gave it the time of day.

    Precisely, the government took no notice of it whatsoever and continue with their punitive regime, attacking the most vulnerable members of our society. 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:



    The UN report? I won't say anything more other than to point out that nobody of any significance in this country gave it the time of day.

    Precisely, the government took no notice of it whatsoever and continue with their punitive regime, attacking the most vulnerable members of our society. 
    Not just the government but also the majority of the agencies and charities that work with the disabled.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Posts: 326Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:

    As a clear example of the normal GP. I see them when I need some advice or intervention. Apart from that there is no need to bother them.
    My GP surgery knows absolutely nothing (other than what I may have told them in passing) about how I manage to live my life. No idea how far I can walk reliably, how I manage in the bath, how I manage whilst on the toilet, how I manage to dress and undress, how I get into and out of bed, how I struggle daily with face to face communication.
    To be truthful all of the above have nothing to do with a GP. Yes I had involvement with Social Services and their OT's but that was 7 years ago. That and other relevant evidence was sent in but the DWP decided against using it as it was clearly out of date.
     

    I see you are still persisting with the line that GP's know nothing about how conditions affect you, but people with far less medical experience know more than GP's. 

    It's a bit like saying a private outranks a general, good luck with persuading people to believe that line.
  • frecklesfreckles Posts: 258Member Pioneering
    I,d just like to say something yadnad said last night saying idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis is not a deadly disease and also said that ipf is not important on the grand scheme of things not my words yours..... IPF kills on averge 5,000 every year and theres no cure approx theres around 32,500 around the uk have it and 7,800 new people are diagnosed with ipf every year granted half the people diagnosed with ipf DIE within 3 years so i would say YES IT IS A DEADLY DISEASE
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Yadnad said:

    As a clear example of the normal GP. I see them when I need some advice or intervention. Apart from that there is no need to bother them.
    My GP surgery knows absolutely nothing (other than what I may have told them in passing) about how I manage to live my life. No idea how far I can walk reliably, how I manage in the bath, how I manage whilst on the toilet, how I manage to dress and undress, how I get into and out of bed, how I struggle daily with face to face communication.
    To be truthful all of the above have nothing to do with a GP. Yes I had involvement with Social Services and their OT's but that was 7 years ago. That and other relevant evidence was sent in but the DWP decided against using it as it was clearly out of date.
     

    I see you are still persisting with the line that GP's know nothing about how conditions affect you, but people with far less medical experience know more than GP's. 

    It's a bit like saying a private outranks a general, good luck with persuading people to believe that line.
    From a GP's perspective why would they want to know how you get in and out of bed and what help you need to do so? It's horses for courses - each does a different job simple as.
    You can believe what you want to but no matter what argument you put up it will hold no water. PIP assessors are there to assess what points they can or cannot award you. You may not like the system but you must remember that the vast majority of claimants receive the correct award first time round - so somebody must be doing a good job.  
  • GeraldGerald Posts: 213Member Pioneering
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:


    What GP or Consultant that you know has given you a report on the findings of tests as to how the impact you say you have fits in with the PIP descriptors? None I would assume. Likewise you are not going to expect a PIP assessor to examine you, diagnose an issue and offer treatment for it. 
    Hi Yadnad okay then how can a PIP assessor come up with there point of view is right and not reports from a Doctor and Consuitants report as i have a stoma which is a hole in my side which is all so called a colostomy, were one end of the colon is pulled out through a cut in your tummy and stitched to the skin to create a stoma and have a colostomy bag to collect your poo (stools) so how can a PIP assessor put down that no aids are needed to help you to manage toilet needs or  incontinence of either bladder or bowel you tell me is this right the assessor or a Doctor and Consuitants.
    I have put the question to you but have not a reply - your answer will explain the difference between the medical professional and the disability analyst.
    Okay Yadnad so off that you think that after seeing a PIP assessor for 20mins knows more about me than my Doctor and Consuitants who are medical professional in 20mins thats my reply not happy with that do you think that the PIP assessor is right then in 20mins thats a good one. 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    Gerald said:
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:
    Yadnad said:
    Gerald said:




    Okay Yadnad so off that you think that after seeing a PIP assessor for 20mins knows more about me than my Doctor and Consuitants who are medical professional in 20mins thats my reply not happy with that do you think that the PIP assessor is right then in 20mins thats a good one. 
    Yes they would - they aren't interested in your medical issues or historical problems so why would they want to discuss them with you? Just as long as they can put together an opinion on what you have put on the claim form as to the impact you endure, whether it is medically feasible and whether or not that impact will score points. That's it job done.
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering

    I’m not an assessor but I started posting on here in the vain hope that I might be able to help others to not make the same mistakes as I did when making a claim.

    If you take nothing else from this topic you must try to understand that It’s important to make a clear distinction between diagnosis and functionality. If you don’t understand this then your claim will go nowhere as that's what PIP is about. Unfortunately, nearly every other post on here starts with a long list of ailments followed by “why did I only score x points” 

    The fact that a GP/Consultant has diagnosed a particular condition will rarely be disputed - certainly not by @ilovecats or any other assessor but it has little impact on functionality. My daughter has epilepsy. Can she claim PIP? No - because her condition has next to no impact on her carrying out daily tasks. She's incredibly lucky.

    Finally I don't believe that people are fully understanding what ilovecats is saying about the evidence from GPs. - some are fairly obviously being a little bit mischievous in feigning ignorance.

    We now know that a GPs opinion about a persons functionality, based on an examination is very valuable (and very rare). We also know that a  report that says "he tells me that he can't stand up for long periods" etc is just about worthless. I have dozens of pages of medical reports written by a top neurologist - valuable as a diagnosis but worthless as regards functionality (mainly because he never mentions it)

    In order to try and make this into a positive post I wonder if there is any sense in suggesting the following?

    Why not approach your GP and ask if he/she if they could examine you and  give an opinion about how your condition affects you in specific area. Something along the lines of, “I examined MR X and found that his arthritis in the left knee prevents him bending it more that xx degrees. This means that he will be able to bend sufficiently to put his socks on”

    My GP is almost certain to say that he’s too busy. And you’ll have to pay I imagine. But worth considering surely?


    I


  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 13
    cristobal said:

    Why not approach your GP and ask if he/she if they could examine you and  give an opinion about how your condition affects you in specific area. Something along the lines of, “I examined MR X and found that his arthritis in the left knee prevents him bending it more that xx degrees. This means that he will be able to bend sufficiently to put his socks on”

    My GP is almost certain to say that he’s too busy. And you’ll have to pay I imagine. But worth considering surely?

    That sounds like the way to go forward and I do agree with you in that the GP will say no (due to other pressures) but it may be possible as a paying patient.
    Another suggestion if you have that sort of cash hanging around is to have a private assessment with an OT for a full report on what you can and cannot do. You must be careful as to not put words in their mouth.

    https://www.livingmadeeasy.org.uk/scenario.php?csid=89

    https://rcotss-ip.org.uk/

    The average cost for an assessment is in the region of £600 and any further reports/work is charged out at about £90 an hour.

  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 574Member Pioneering
    £600 per hour?
    Ouch!

This discussion has been closed.