Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)
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Am i able to claim severe disability premium, joint tenancy agreement

lb123lb123 Member Posts: 1 Listener
Hi
I am 64 female and i get esa support and pip enhanced m and d since 2015.
i/we have had a joint tenancy agreement (50:50) since 2010 with the same l/lord. My son (aged 42 and working full time) is the other joint tenant.  Am i able to claim sdp.
No help from dwp.
Thank you

Replies

  • lb12345lb12345 Member Posts: 1 Listener
    Hi All
    So confused!
    I am 64 female was on IB, then wrag but unable to work, so now on esa support and enhanced pip since 2015.  No sdp.
    Q - Took out a joint tenancy back in 2010 with same landlord.  My joint tenant is my son (aged 42) who works full time but cares for me when at home, mornings, evenings and w/ends but no ca. Can I claim sdp?
    DWP no help!  Does anyone know?
    Thanks

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    Unfortunately, even though you are both joint tenants you won't qualify for the SDP because he's your son and classed as a close relative. The whole purpose of the SDP is that the person lives alone or classed as living alone. The only way you would qualify in these circumstances is if your son claims a qualifying benefit such as PIP daily living.


    This was taken from the above link. The Severe Disability Premium is intended for those severely disabled people who live 
    independently, and who are therefore most likely to need to purchase care. However, it is 
    recognised that there are circumstances when people sharing accommodation should not be 
    expected, or may not be able, to provide care for the disabled person. For this reason, the 
    presence of certain people is ignored when deciding whether or not the disabled person lives 
    alone. This means, for example, that no account is taken of people (other than close relatives 
    of the claimant) who live in the same house because of a commercial arrangement. 


    Also this decision makers guide and scroll down from 44111












    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Pippa_ScopePippa_Scope Member Posts: 5,856 Disability Gamechanger
    Welcome to the community, @lb12345!
  • Antonia_ScopeAntonia_Scope Member Posts: 1,783 Pioneering
    edited February 2019
    Hi @lb123

    Welcome to the community and thank you for sharing this with us. Some of our members may be able to answer your questions soon.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Hi,
    i have a joint tenancy with my estranged ex who refuses to move out. I claim a single persons tax credit, housing benefit and esa all single not a couple just 2 people living in a house as the courts have said he is not my Carer either we are not a couple and I have a bf. We pay our rent separate to our landlord. Can I claim the severe premium as I receive all benefits as a single person. 
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I would like to add the court papers were dated 2012 which is the year I was then apparently entitled to the premium and it was HMRC I took to court because they said I had been claiming single person tax credits when there was another adult taxpayer living at my address. I have never been married and all my benefits are inline as I had a compliance check for my esa last year because of the adult and once I showed my court papers they took no action. We are not related and I have shown medical evidence that supports the situation as being hostile! 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    To claim the severe disability premium in with your ESA you must be claiming a qualifying benefit such as PIP daily living or DLA mid/high rate care and no one must claim carers allowance for looking after you. If you do claim the qualifying benefit then you'll need to ring ESA and ask to fill out the IS10 form over the phone. Decisions take a couple of weeks.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Yes I just looked through. I have had pip and dla since 2011 went to support esa in 2012 from IB they put me on the wrong esa and last year I got a payment out of the blue dating back to 2014. Well, since I enquired about the severe premium they realised I had been on the wrong esa meaning they were paying too little since 2012! I have filled in forms over phone  and told decision by May 7th no decision, no info I found out when I rang. They want to now do a home visit which I don’t care when they turn up, Sunday morning would be best when my boyfriend is sleeping over with the other tenant that the other woman on phone  said I couldn’t claim because of is in bed. I checked the manual we are not related or ever married duh! All benefit agencies especially the monster HMRC ALL know who live here and what benefits I have been paid. I was transparent with my appeal to HMRC and even they cannot say we live as a couple and there guidelines are tougher! I am annoyed with how badly I’ve been treated by both HMRC and DWP because whenever I have applied there has always been a mountain of evidence. I suffer with Fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, ptsd, self harm all done to ill health and childhood abuse trauma and yet I am always having to fight them, maybe I just sound too deranged and ill to be believed? I was diagnosed depression in 2002 and nobody told me I could claim my dla until 2011 when CAB took over my case when HMRC accused me of claiming single claim when I shouldn’t have been (7 years) but it was my local benefits adviser for council who applied for it for me! I only found out about this premium 4 months ago! I have only related to HMRC as to prove the legitimacy of my claim. You are welcome to ask me details of that should it benefit others. They make DWP look like **** cats 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    If you're still claiming Contributions based ESA and you haven't had a decision on the IB to ESA underpayments then you will need to wait for a decision on that before you can claim the severe disability premium. This is because the SDP can't be awarded on Contributions based ESA. If you're successfully awarded the Income related top up on your ESA then you'll need to ring to claim the SDP as advised above.

    Decisions for the IB to ESA underpayments can take as long as 20 weeks.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I went over to esa from IB. Last year I got a letter saying my esa was wrong and I was underpaid from 2014-2018, I have always put down contribution because that’s what I thought I was on until last year. I did a benefit calculator and it came up the severe disability premium came up and I online chat turn2 and they said call them. I applied for disability premium on phone she said I was always on income related not contribution and 2-3 weeks later I got another letter saying I was again underpaid for esa 2012-2014 and got another payment. Apparently there 100,000’s people underpaid there ESA it was online and papers! But I didn’t get the 2nd payout until I enquired about the premium and they said they would need to calculate what I would be entitled to. So now nobody wrote to say they need to do a visit I had to call after the date they said would be decision and the woman said they want have to do home visit and I called 2 weeks ago and they couldn’t tell me anything just said they will be in touch! 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    When the underpayments were first announced they were only backdating to November 2014. Sometime later they made another announcement are were now backdated to November 2011. This is the reason why you received to separate payments.

    For the SDP then i'm afraid you'll need to wait for DWP to make a decision.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    what is truly odd is that my contribution esa award was dated 21/10/2012 and the review about income related all say my claim from 23/10/2012. It clearly states i was entitled to income related esa! I have it in front of me!  :#:# 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry but i'm lost on this one. If the question is about the SDP then i'm afraid you'll need to wait for DWP to make a decision. Hopefully not too long.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Administrator Posts: 7,669 Scope community team
    Hi @gingerella75, if you are still unsure then the Scope helpline may be able to provide some further advice. You can call them on 0808 800 3333 :)
    Community Partner
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Excellent I shall be in touch 

  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Administrator Posts: 7,669 Scope community team
    I hope they are able to help @gingerella75!
    Community Partner
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Not good news. They demand that they have proof both tenants are 50% liable for rent but my landlord can’t. I get my half paid in full by housing benefit. I don’t know if council tax can say we are 50% liable 
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I do pay my council tax small portion but the direct debit isn’t out of my account as they wouldn’t take it split 
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Hi @gingerella75, if you are still unsure then the Scope helpline may be able to provide some further advice. You can call them on 0808 800 3333 :)
    They tried to help but gave me a number for another housing association who can only help there own customers. But the man was polite. 
  • Joanne_ScopeJoanne_Scope Helpline, Scope adviser Posts: 183 Pioneering
    Hi @gingerella75. Do you not have an award letter from HB that shows they are paying 50% of the rent on your behalf? That might be enough proof to show that the tenancy is split. 
    Joanne 
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Yes I do and they have it and my tenancy agreement. They say it isn’t enough evidence that they want proof of separate payments! My landlord now writing a letter so now it’s the council tax. Direct debit on other tenants account as he pays majority but they will deny me because of that. All other agencies are happy. I have asked for a letter that clearly states we are equally liable for council tax. Set up standing order for the separate payments but it will only stand for a new claim with no back payment. I asked to appeal the decision and the woman on phone said I couldn’t 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    You can appeal any decision and the first step to this is mandatory reconsideration.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Yes I know! I am registered with a website that allows you to write to DWP publicly and I have. Tenant is getting a letter to confirm his weekly rent charge which surprise surprise with be the exact same amount as my housing benefit, put both together and they match the tenancy agreement! Maybe I write it in shouty capital letters so they can read it clearly! The other site an advisor said she had dealt with a few and only provided tenancy agreements and council tax bill. I don’t want him here but can’t legally force him to move and my boyfriend stays over at weekends and cooks for me and kids and joint tenant sleeps on mattress on floor in lounge! She said I need to send more paperwork to prove that they have asked for and they will ‘consider’ looking at it again

    the woman from DWP telling me I can’t appeal is rubbish! I’ve had 3 tribunals and 5 appeals!  
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I haven’t received any letters at all, I have had to call and ask for a callback 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    I realise you're angry but shouting in a letter really isn't going to help you here. I'm assuming the tenancy agreement is in both names?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • ClarifierClarifier Member Posts: 5 Listener

    Hi poppy12345

    Just joined the community and looking for some clarification

    Going back to the original post from lb123 who has a joint tenancy with adult son and is querying eligibility for SDP

    I've had a look at the document on the hyperlink you provide to the decision maker's guide 
    DMG Vol 8 Chapter 44


    See 44139
    People who are not non-dependants

    8.
    a close relative who satisfies 7. and the
    8.1 claimant or partners co-ownership or joint liability arose
    8.1.a before 11.4.88 or
    8.1.b if later, on or before the date on which the claimant or partner first occupied the dwelling

    Would 8.1.b apply to lb123 ??

    Why is it so difficult to find all this information I wonder.

    found an easier summary of it here




    Hi,

    Unfortunately, even though you are both joint tenants you won't qualify for the SDP because he's your son and classed as a close relative. The whole purpose of the SDP is that the person lives alone or classed as living alone. The only way you would qualify in these circumstances is if your son claims a qualifying benefit such as PIP daily living.


    This was taken from the above link. The Severe Disability Premium is intended for those severely disabled people who live 
    independently, and who are therefore most likely to need to purchase care. However, it is 
    recognised that there are circumstances when people sharing accommodation should not be 
    expected, or may not be able, to provide care for the disabled person. For this reason, the 
    presence of certain people is ignored when deciding whether or not the disabled person lives 
    alone. This means, for example, that no account is taken of people (other than close relatives 
    of the claimant) who live in the same house because of a commercial arrangement. 


    Also this decision makers guide and scroll down from 44111




















  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger

    Hi,

    This is an old thread but to answer your question then no 8.1b will not apply to the son here. The reason is because the son is expected to care for the mother because they are classed as a close relative.

    It's not difficult to find the information regarding close relatives and SDP.

    Hope this answers your question.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • ClarifierClarifier Member Posts: 5 Listener
    Here is a summary of the regulations that may apply:

    People who are not non-dependants
    7. a person or their partner who is not a close relative, except where
    8. applies, who jointly occupies the claimant’s dwelling and who is
    7.1 a co-owner of the dwelling with the claimant or partner or
    7.2 jointly liable with the claimant (or partner) to make payments to the same landlord for the occupation of the dwelling
    8. a close relative who satisfies 7. and the
    8.1 claimant or partners co-ownership or joint liability arose
    8.1.a before 11.4.88 or 8.1.b if later, on or before the date on which the claimant (or partner) first occupied the dwelling


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    Clarifier said:
    Here is a summary of the regulations that may apply:

    People who are not non-dependants
    7. a person or their partner who is not a close relative, except where
    8. applies, who jointly occupies the claimant’s dwelling and who is
    7.1 a co-owner of the dwelling with the claimant or partner or
    7.2 jointly liable with the claimant (or partner) to make payments to the same landlord for the occupation of the dwelling
    8. a close relative who satisfies 7. and the
    8.1 claimant or partners co-ownership or joint liability arose
    8.1.a before 11.4.88 or 8.1.b if later, on or before the date on which the claimant (or partner) first occupied the dwelling


    There's 2 different questions by 2 different people in this thread. The original poster who started the thread lives with their son, who's classed as a close relative and therefore not entitled to the SDP.

    The 2nd question from a different person (gingerella)  is a totally different question because they live with their ex partner, who is not a close relative, but the decision maker has decided that they were not entitled to the SDP.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • ClarifierClarifier Member Posts: 5 Listener
    It is difficult to find the information as the regulations appear to state:

    the close relative is not regarded as a non-dependant in this situation
    The information should have been requested from the claimant on an IS10 form
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I’m not angry, just has been like pushing a boulder up a hill with a crippling illness that has you trapped in a body that has no breaks or deformities but raging pain. You crave human touch to feel a bond and supported but that itself causes such hideous pain and a feeling of a bleak future. That doubled with mental illnesses that if meds aren’t right you don’t know you are more ill than usual. But to get the help I’ve had to fight every time and it does leave you in despair. 2 special need teenagers and somebody who occupies your home that legally isn’t in my favour. I didn’t chose it and even letters from gp and my landlord literally spelling it out is not enough. I now have another compliance interview on phone which I don’t care I have completely disclosed everything and had 1 last year. I’ve been told by dwp that my entitlement to single welfare claims has nothing to do with my entitlement to sdp
    as it is not a welfare benefit but to be entitled to it you have to be in receipt of welfare benefits. I know they have to be certain and I welcome that but I even have a decision from the tribunal services saying I am single. That was a horrendous time that 1 year turned into a question of 7 because I would not back down because I knew the truth and so did other agencies. So it’s not a regular situation but I have had to fight more than is fair but there are others in my situation not knowing they can argue the system as there is president for it. I wish I had the energy to get angry but more dissolution 😔😔😔 
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I apologise, I wasn’t shouty just overwhelmingly tired and frustrated from constant complications every time I ever have to deal with them, the stress caused me to need a medication review, it wasn’t until after that I realised I wasn’t well. I asked for reconciliation, they did a compliance check and they have awarded it. I applied in 

    I just don’t understand the esa rate I am on. I am in support main phase, which disability premium would they give me? They have to backdate it to 2013. Would I already have the disability premium? Would the severe be additional.

    again sincere apologies, I have had to fight them every time about my disability, I look fine but the more stress I have the more pain. Fibromyalgia is a horrible invisible beast! I looked back on my records and I applied for it in April. 
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    my disabled son is staying in full time education after he turns 18 he has enhanced pip living. Will this mean my entitlement will end? 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Administrator Posts: 5,625 Scope community team
    Hi @gingerella75. I'm sorry this has caused you so much stress and I can understand why you're so frustrated. 

    How much ESA are you currently receiving? We might be able to work out what premiums (if any) you're currently getting if we know the rate. 

    As your son has enhanced daily living PIP, this won't change any potential entitlement you have to SDP. 
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    £256.90 a fortnight. I have pip standard daily living and enhanced mobility. They ordered a compliance check and tbh I found that amusing as I had one last year or exactly the same. they had overwhelmingly proof I was entitled and asked for proof that doesn’t exist so I had council and landlord to write to them telling them it! Works out at 😕😕 worked it out as 263 weeks dating back to 2013! 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Administrator Posts: 5,625 Scope community team
    edited October 2019
    Hi @gingerella75.

    It sounds as though you're getting just the Enhanced disability premium. 

    £111.65 a week support group + £16.80 Enhanced disability premium 
    = £128.45 per week.


    Senior Community Partner
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Yes, so now I have been told I have been awarded the severe premium. When they first declined my claim they said I couldn’t appeal because I had no reason to. I stood my ground and refused. They were deliberately awkward and asked for things that didn’t exist but I stood my ground and had my landlord and council to say they were wrong! Most people would have given up, I want people to know that no matter how odd there situation is don’t be put off! If I can win and mine is very odd they likely can. 

    No shouting 😊 I just want people to know there is hope 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Administrator Posts: 5,625 Scope community team
    That's great @gingerella75! Well done for standing your ground and I'm glad you were able to fight for what you were entitled to. Thanks so much for sharing with us. 
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Your welcome to come back to me for any queries regarding anyone facing the same dilemma as I did. Sometimes when parents split they can’t move out and benefit agencies refuse to see them as single and expect them to continue as a couple, people aren’t told they can challenge them and that it isn’t disallowed like the day it is. 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Administrator Posts: 5,625 Scope community team
    edited October 2019
    That's really nice of you, thank you @gingerella75. I'm really happy it was sorted for you and hopefully seeing your story will help others in the same situation. 
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    I got paid today, quite a big payout. So like I said stand your ground, it took 6 months and they weren’t telling the truth saying I couldn’t appeal! Don’t always believe what they say! I’ve had them bully me badly but won every time (4 times now). 
  • molliemooremolliemoore Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Hi gingerella75,after reading your post, I could do with your help if possible. I'm in similar situation. Thank you
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi gingerella75,after reading your post, I could do with your help if possible. I'm in similar situation. Thank you

    Did you do what i advised you to do in your other thread and send your housing benefits award to DWP, which clearly states you each pay 50% share of the rent?
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • molliemooremolliemoore Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Not as yet,CAB are ringing me on tuesday next week and I haven't had a decision from dwp until next week. I will take your advice though when I get my decision. Thank you ,your very helpful.
  • molliemooremolliemoore Member Posts: 12 Connected
    Morning guys, I'm still battling with dwp regarding sdp.  Cab are hopefully gonna take this case on monday to move forward with this.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 18,500 Disability Gamechanger
    Do be aware that advice agencies may not be available due to the current Covid19 pandemic.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • gingerella75gingerella75 Member Posts: 20 Connected
    Hi gingerella75,after reading your post, I could do with your help if possible. I'm in similar situation. Thank you
    How can I help? 
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