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PIP APPEAL HEARING EXPERIENCE

male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
edited September 11 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hello everyone.  I'm new to here and came on to share my experience yesterday of my PIP APPEAL. 
I've waited 13 months on the appeal having four previous dates postponed mostly because of lack of medical files and the one appeal date letter posted to my old address (even though I did write to them giving my new address). 
Anyhow yesterday my appeal was set for 2.30pm myself, wife and representative from CAB now known as Advice Space set going over all evidence and his Hope's to have my daily living component raised from standard rate to enhanced rate.  He didnt hold out hope of getting my mobility component added which was withdrawn on my assessment. 
The clerk of the court came to us a few times to say the case in front if us was over running. . Then after 2 full hours which was around 3.35pm the clerk came back inviting our rep alone into the tribunal room. He returned very deeply upset and said the panel wants it adjourned and when he pressed the panel that my case wouldn't take long the panel dr asked then for my mri scan images because my mri results were in my medical files but he wanted to see the scans as basically in my reps own words the dr thinks I'm bluffing.
Today I've talked to my rep and completed a form for him to obtain from hospitals my mri results. 
Info on my health history is:   I was a bus driver in belfast often assaulted and finally had my bus patrol bombed and gutted from which the firms dr medically discharged me from the job on grounds I couldn't go on.
That was 1985. I've suffered from PTSD ulcers, anxiety, depression, and had a heart attack in 2006 with stent inserted. In the last few years I've had back pain increasing yearly. Last year it was so bad I was sent for xray and mri scans. The scans show DDD degenerative disc disease with osteophytes in L5 to S1. Also two discs just above having buldging in them. My gp said I've stage 3 DDD
But the pip assessor removed my mobility part of dla I was getting but kept the daily living lower component.   She said she was a nurse. 
I gave up my driving licence because of dizziness, blurry vision and back pain of pressing the pedals as well it's against the law to drive while using medication of certain types. I'm on three 400 mg of gabapentin daily and one 600mg of same at night as well as heart meds and high bp meds. The appeal panel cant understand why I volunteered giving my licence back 
We left the building demoralised. But will try obtaining my mri scan images for next hearing which will have same three persons and hopefully I can actually get in to the room to be interrogated.
I wonder have any members had similar experience at appeals. 

Replies

  • AilsAils Posts: 567Community champion Pioneering
    Hi @male45 and welcome to the Community.  It is nice to meet you and thank you for sharing your experience with us.  I'm very sorry to hear what happened yesterday with your hearing as that must have been very frustrating for you.  Thank you for highlighting this to others.  I am sure there will be members who have went through a similar experience and can relate to this.  Please keep in touch and let us know how your new hearing goes.  If we can be of any help/support to you then please just let us know.  All the best.   :)
  • emmarenshawemmarenshaw Posts: 220Community champion Pioneering
    Hello @male45 welcome to the community and thank you for sharing your experiences with us. That must have been so hard for you to go through, know that we’re here if you need our support. The community and Scope team  are lovely and are here when or if you need them.
  • April2018momApril2018mom Posts: 1,617Member Disability Gamechanger
    Hello @male45!
    How frustrating for you! Thanks for sharing your story with us. Keep us updated on your hearing too. 
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Thank you all for your lovely comments and welcoming me here. 
    Yes it was very frustrating,  we couldn't believe what we were being asked for.
    Today it has soaked in and all I can think of is that the panel dr was a pratt. 
    :)
  • paffuto10paffuto10 Posts: 83Member Pioneering
    Hello @male45 and welcome  :)

    Thanks for sharing. 
    The whole PIP thing is such an ordeal, isn't it? Gets most of us down I think. 

    Sorry to hear you're having to go through all this stress.

    I'm lucky, I haven't yet had to go through appeal so can't share any experience with you. 

    Someone will have though and very likely to come along and advise /share. 

    Hope you and your wife have the strength to carry on. 
    System stinks!!  :(  <3
  • deb74deb74 Posts: 324Member Pioneering
    Hi @male45. I was lucky when I got my pip. My assessor was lovely and I got my pip first time. So many people seem to have to appeal. It is so unfair! Good luck
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Thank you Paffuto10 and deb74
    Yes it's been a trying time from last year. Someone told me that the judiciary has been leaned on because too many appeals are being or rather were being won. I know that cant be but it's interesting
    I'll keep fighting even though my rep says we have to be careful incase my standard daily living and esa are taken off me.  He told me yesterday that the person who acts as judge...is hostile...towards him and has opposed him a good few times now he also said whilst sitting around chatting to other reps from other organisations they have confirmed same story of the same legal person being hostile to them also.  I am dreading the next date as I'm prepared for the legal person voting no and the dr the same. 
  • emmarenshawemmarenshaw Posts: 220Community champion Pioneering
    @male45 Good luck with it all, know that we’re here should you need our support or to access any of Scope’s services. Please keep us posted with how you are getting on.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Thank you I will indeed.
    Maybe some could tell me what they feel about this panel I've to go before whenever that will be.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    @male45 Good luck with it all, know that we’re here should you need our support or to access any of Scope’s services. Please keep us posted with how you are getting on.
    Thank you. I've been in touch with my go who informs me that drs surgeries dint keep scan images  I'll have to contact all hospitals I've been to for scans now. I'm not familiar with Scopes services, could you tell me a little more about these please.
  • paffuto10paffuto10 Posts: 83Member Pioneering
    @male45

    Good morning  :)

    Feeling a bit fed up this morning because it's lovely sunshine outside and not well enough to go out !! 
    Ah well, what can you do? 

    Angry on your behalf that after all you've been through, you now have to chase up scan images.!!!!
    Why, when they already have the results??? 

    Sorry, I'm quite new here myself so not really sure about "scopes services" yet.

    We've just finished our own battle (small battle compared to yours) with Mandatory Reconsideration for our adult son who has severe autism / mild brain damage and lives in supported living. They gave him zero points for PIP after being on DLA for 20 years!!! 

    Anyway, we managed to get him standard Daily Living and standard Mobility. Yaaay  :)

    My own battle starts in two weeks with my PIP Renewal assessment. Dreading it.!!! 

    There's not much you can do about it over the weekend so could you possibly manage to switch off for a few days to rest yourself?
    Maybe something good on TV or Netflix? Or if well enough to go out with wife, just sit outside a nice cafe and "people watch"? 
    We do that (when I'm up to it) when things get too much and we both promise not to mention PIP for a whole day  ;)

    Sorry I'm not very helpful except to give support. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    @male45 if HMCTS are considering removing points which will remove any existing award they have to warning you before doing this. They will either warn you by sending you a letter or wait for the hearing and warn you during the hearing, which will then be adjourned to allow you time to consider going ahead or risk losing everything you already have.

    Your ESA award has nothing to do with your PIP claim.

    I'm actually very surprised that your rep didn't know this...
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Hi Paffuto10.
    I'm sorry you're going through your own battles for your son yourself and wife as she suffers also. This who system sucks to hell and no one cares about it really. I rang a political parties surgery here asking for help to complete my pip assessment form last yr. They refused on grounds they were helping too many and hadn't the time. I'm glad I dont vote.
    I sincerely hope you win your case.as for your sons case I'm glad you got both fir him after an uphill struggle.
    I cant understand the system with your sons battle .my nephew is an adult drivers and works and goes to the gym he is autistic also. Goes into severe bouts of depression at times. He was in one at time of his pip assessment when the assessor visited him at home. He never got out of bed. The assessor told my sister his mother by alright he should be so she could assess him. But she asked my sister questions and left. He got full enhanced on both. 
    I've just received in the post this morning a letter from the appeals place telling me reasons they adjourned,  not only are they asking for images of my mri scans but also letters from my OT, my Physiotherapist department,  and why my driving lience was removed from me.
    They asked my rep about my lience when I was there he told them I surrendered it myself on grounds of the meds I am on like gabapentin,  heart meds, aspirin etc and dizziness, blurry vision, headaches, osteoarthritis on my back and neck  but this doesnt appear satisfactorily to the appeal panel. ( I thought it was against the law to drive under the influence of drugs and alcohol.
    I told my rep I asked the OT and Physio departments months ago for letters to help with my pip appeal and both said no they dont do letters. This appears not satisfactory to the appeal panel also.
    My wife's down this morning after reading the letter and wants me to drop the appeal because as she said they appear willing to remove the standard rate of daily living I've got fir pip plus my esa 
    I dont know what to do now I'm truly feeling low.


  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    @male45 if HMCTS are considering removing points which will remove any existing award they have to warning you before doing this. They will either warn you by sending you a letter or wait for the hearing and warn you during the hearing, which will then be adjourned to allow you time to consider going ahead or risk losing everything you already have.

    Your ESA award has nothing to do with your PIP claim.

    I'm actually very surprised that your rep didn't know this...
    Hi Poppy123456
    I read somewhere it may even have been on scope somewhere that the legal person has in the past told the appellant that esa will also be contacted because the appellant that sat before them that day lost their pip in full .
    I think my rep did say we had to he careful..he may have mentioned benefits or not I'm not sure as by that time my head was pickled.
    The appeal building is in central Belfast,  I had not until that day set foot in Belfast for over 40 yrs because of the trauma I experienced as a Belfast bus driver during the troubles.
    My rep says they are not taking that into account or my mental state having ptsd.
    I now know why he returned to the room we sat in looking very angry and annoyed.
    I appreciate your advice and comments it's truly helpful.
    I'd love to hear from others and what advice scope give me please.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    HMCTS don't contact ESA because PIP and ESA have different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.
  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 637Member Pioneering
    @male45 - I don't have any experience of tribunals as I didn't get that far but in criminal proceedings you'll find a great reluctance in starting a case if it means that the judge might not be out of the door on time. You said I believe that you were running a couple of hours late so this might explain the adjournment rather than needing additional evidence perhaps?

    Personally I'd have a think about whether your rep is a good choice.

     If 'the judge is hostile towards him and has opposed him'  then I'd try to find out why - if he has a track record of antagonising people on the panel personally I'd look elsewhere. 
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    HMCTS don't contact ESA because PIP and ESA have different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.
    I hope you're right and thank you :smile:
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @male45 - I don't have any experience of tribunals as I didn't get that far but in criminal proceedings you'll find a great reluctance in starting a case if it means that the judge might not be out of the door on time. You said I believe that you were running a couple of hours late so this might explain the adjournment rather than needing additional evidence perhaps?

    Personally I'd have a think about whether your rep is a good choice.

     If 'the judge is hostile towards him and has opposed him'  then I'd try to find out why - if he has a track record of antagonising people on the panel personally I'd look elsewhere. 
    I honestly do not know if he has any track record for antagonism and I doubt that I would ever find out if so. As the time was running against us I believe the panel wanted home so made the outrageous demands from us.
    I have phone one organisation today telling them what has happened and asking for their help and advice...they didnt want to know they just said speak with your rep. I expect that from other orgs.  I've to meet my rep on thursday and will have a long hard talk with him.
    Thank you for listening :)

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    male45 said:
    HMCTS don't contact ESA because PIP and ESA have different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.
    I hope you're right and thank you :smile:
    I am correct. As for your rep, i would also have a long think about whether or not to stick with them. Seems to me like they may not be the best person to represent you.
  • worried33worried33 Posts: 271Member Pioneering
    Consider the @cristobal advice.

    In my previous work with tribunals, I was always told treat the panel with respect 'always'.  Dont let things get personal.  Its not a game of roulette where you expect things to even out, if a particular judge gives a lot of judgements against you it could simply be down to those particular cases and they fell on that judge.  The rep isnt acting in a manner that would fill me with confidence.

    In my last tribunal where I represented myself, I was grilled pretty heavily, and didnt think it was going to end well.  But I did get the award I went in for.  If you expect the judge and panel to trust you, then you also have to trust them, it works both ways.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    male45 said:
    HMCTS don't contact ESA because PIP and ESA have different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.
    I hope you're right and thank you :smile:
    I am correct. As for your rep, i would also have a long think about whether or not to stick with them. Seems to me like they may not be the best person to represent you.
    Thank you :)
  • paffuto10paffuto10 Posts: 83Member Pioneering
    @male45

    Sorry that both you and your wife are feeling down about it all today. Hardly surprising really.

    Re my son. The problem is he keeps telling everyone he's ok (he really isn't, that's why he's in supported living). 
    We feel OK with the result, he now has the same as the dla, so that's good. 

    I really hope your situation gets sorted, whole thing is just mind boggling.!! 

    Wishing you both strength to continue.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    worried33 said:
    Consider the @cristobal advice.

    In my previous work with tribunals, I was always told treat the panel with respect 'always'.  Dont let things get personal.  Its not a game of roulette where you expect things to even out, if a particular judge gives a lot of judgements against you it could simply be down to those particular cases and they fell on that judge.  The rep isnt acting in a manner that would fill me with confidence.

    In my last tribunal where I represented myself, I was grilled pretty heavily, and didnt think it was going to end well.  But I did get the award I went in for.  If you expect the judge and panel to trust you, then you also have to trust them, it works both ways.
    Thank you. You say with previous work with tribunials?
    I dont know tbh if my rep has given panels a hard time or this one judge. I may be giving everyone a wrong impression of him because of his words and how he looked after returning to the waiting room to us.
    But. Having said that the thought did cross my mind if he is giving panels a hard time in particular this one judge.
    Or is my mind playing me as I'm feeling so confused and down today four days after sitting there for two hours, one full hour passed my official scheduled hearing time.
    Weve met with my rep several times giving him info on my medical condition  the meds I'm on dates I've been to hospital and reasons why or for mri or xray and so on. Hes always appeared very polite and smart, posh even. He appears to recognise a good few signatures on copies of letters sent to my gp from mental health organisations and so on.
    I could be barking up the wrong tree however in trying to convince myself hes ok or giving you members the impression he isn't.
    I'm just so very confused.
    I'm also thinking that if, I drop this appeal in order to save my standard daily living then whatever has taken place up to dropping it will go against me when I'm next up for pip assessment and lose it all and then it all starts all over again.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    The only time you need to think about whether to cancel the appeal is if you're warned you could lose the award you already have. If there's no warning then you can't lose that award, so you may as well continue. The worst that can happen is that they agree with DWP and you'll remain on your existing award.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    paffuto10 said:
    @male45

    Sorry that both you and your wife are feeling down about it all today. Hardly surprising really.

    Re my son. The problem is he keeps telling everyone he's ok (he really isn't, that's why he's in supported living). 
    We feel OK with the result, he now has the same as the dla, so that's good. 

    I really hope your situation gets sorted, whole thing is just mind boggling.!! 

    Wishing you both strength to continue.
    Hi, thank you for your kind words they do help us knowing that folk like yourself and others here who have commented are there listening and supportive. 
    I wish you and your family good wishes aglad that you are OK with your sons results. Maybe one day your son will say something else.
    Best wishes :)
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    The only time you need to think about whether to cancel the appeal is if you're warned you could lose the award you already have. If there's no warning then you can't lose that award, so you may as well continue. The worst that can happen is that they agree with DWP and you'll remain on your existing award.
    Hello poppy123456
    I'm only thinking that we could lose after my rep said we need to be careful how we approach our appeal we dont need to give some things too early in the appeal to them or say things too early. For example part of my ptsd is from trauma going back 40 years of troubles here in belfast which started when I was 11 my best friend of 9 was killed by a stray bullet. I never saw him again. Over the years between bombs n bullets in my city my mental health took a dive. I worked as a post man for a few yrs before moving into bus driving. Going basically from bad to worse having to walk around burnt out vehicles and burning buildings in the early mornings delivering mail to being hijacked, petrol bombed and robbed and more as a bus driver.
    I even treated an injured soldiers two legs where he was injured in a bomb. Now after all these yrs I can see each individual event as clear as I'm typing this.
    I feel my mental health is not being taken into consideration by the pip assessment because the assessor stopped typing when I broke down and restarted when I started talking but never anywhere mentioned this in her report. She even has down that I have certain school qualifications whereas in truth I was married with 4 children by the time those exams hit schools.
    My rep says same he thinks my mental health isn't being considered.
    Having to venture into belfast had me up for nights on end thinking what if someone knows me am I in danger and so on. Sitting the length of time had me so uncomfortable I was actually glad to get outside for fresh air.
    The thought of having to go back in Belfast has me twice as bad now.

  • cristobalcristobal Posts: 637Member Pioneering
    edited September 7
    "my rep said we need to be careful how we approach our appeal we dont need to give some things too early in the appeal to them or say things too early"

    @male45 - as i said I've never been to a tribunal but it does seem that your rep is overthinking things and making it more complicated than it needs be. Surely the best tactic is to tell the panel why you should be awarded PIP and avoid getting all Rumple of the Bailey about it..

    That said if he's a professional adviser then he should know what he's doing ...

    Just my opinion - I'm really sorry to hear of the problems that you're having and I hope that everything turns out OK..

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry to hear that. A poorly presented case can lead to refusal and if you're not careful this could happen here. I'm not saying you'll lose the award you already have because as previously advised, they can't do this without first warning you that they could happen.

    You should be concentrating on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. What happened during your assessment and what was written in the report doesn't matter now because that's gone. You can't prove what happened or what didn't happen. The Tribunal won't be in the least bit interested in any of that. All they will be interested in is where you think you should have scored those points.

    If i were you and i had a rep like you have then i'd be worried and i would either find someone else, or continue on my own.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    "my rep said we need to be careful how we approach our appeal we dont need to give some things too early in the appeal to them or say things too early"

    @male45 - as i said I've never been to a tribunal but it does seem that your rep is overthinking things and making it more complicated than it needs be. Surely the best tactic is to tell the panel why you should be awarded PIP and avoid getting all Rumple of the Bailey about it..

    That said if he's a professional adviser then he should know what he's doing ...

    Just my opinion - I'm really sorry to hear of the problems that you're having and I hope that everything turns out OK..

    Hi cristobal 
    Thank you for being there for me I do appreciate it.
    Urs I agree with you that the simplest way is to face the tribunal and exchange answers for questions. 
    My wife would be in the room with me as shes my carer and she too will be asked questions I presume. She is so nervous she over talks, by this I mean if a question requires a simple yes or no answer she just doesnt do that and if corrected then she feels so overwhelmed she stutters very badly. I dont want her stressed out as shes enough problems. Shes been asked to show by my rep as he said theyll want to talk to her and he himself will put some questions to her. She forgets weve moved house  and all matters are fir our old house. I've had to remind her several times whilst she myself and rep were going over things in the waiting room. And yes I could ask her not to attend  but that would make her feel bad and me for asking and I dont want I'll feelings after at home lol. 
    As politicians here dont sit in stormont but still are paid, they dont care about welfare claimants.
    The second largest party covers the area where I live, but I'm loathed to approach them for any help because of their passed. So it's either I go it alone or with this rep.
    I
    Uouve given me food for thought which I'll have a good think on.
    Thank you and thank you.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    Don't presume they will ask your wife any questions because they don't always do this. Sometimes they will ask at the end if there's anything they want to add but it doesn't always happen.

    You will need to answer those questions in your own words.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    I'm sorry to hear that. A poorly presented case can lead to refusal and if you're not careful this could happen here. I'm not saying you'll lose the award you already have because as previously advised, they can't do this without first warning you that they could happen.

    You should be concentrating on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. What happened during your assessment and what was written in the report doesn't matter now because that's gone. You can't prove what happened or what didn't happen. The Tribunal won't be in the least bit interested in any of that. All they will be interested in is where you think you should have scored those points.

    If i were you and i had a rep like you have then i'd be worried and i would either find someone else, or continue on my own.
    Hi poppy123456
    Thank you for listening.
    Yes I have the choice of going it alone. I would if I could I just find it very hard to face people and trust them.
    This is in my pip forms and mandatory requests. When that was refused I wrote a very long letter to the dwp pointing out many things and how I am. 
    That letter is with my rep I saw it as he was going through everything.  I had forgotten I wrote it. I did it in haste and anger but was polite in it.
    I'll have a long talk with my rep next Thursday and if I have bad vibes from him then I'll ditch him. But I know having already searched around here I will not have help from other organisations. 
    Thank you :)
  • worried33worried33 Posts: 271Member Pioneering
    male45 said:
    worried33 said:
    Consider the @cristobal advice.

    In my previous work with tribunals, I was always told treat the panel with respect 'always'.  Dont let things get personal.  Its not a game of roulette where you expect things to even out, if a particular judge gives a lot of judgements against you it could simply be down to those particular cases and they fell on that judge.  The rep isnt acting in a manner that would fill me with confidence.

    In my last tribunal where I represented myself, I was grilled pretty heavily, and didnt think it was going to end well.  But I did get the award I went in for.  If you expect the judge and panel to trust you, then you also have to trust them, it works both ways.
    Thank you. You say with previous work with tribunials?
    I dont know tbh if my rep has given panels a hard time or this one judge. I may be giving everyone a wrong impression of him because of his words and how he looked after returning to the waiting room to us.
    But. Having said that the thought did cross my mind if he is giving panels a hard time in particular this one judge.
    Or is my mind playing me as I'm feeling so confused and down today four days after sitting there for two hours, one full hour passed my official scheduled hearing time.
    Weve met with my rep several times giving him info on my medical condition  the meds I'm on dates I've been to hospital and reasons why or for mri or xray and so on. Hes always appeared very polite and smart, posh even. He appears to recognise a good few signatures on copies of letters sent to my gp from mental health organisations and so on.
    I could be barking up the wrong tree however in trying to convince myself hes ok or giving you members the impression he isn't.
    I'm just so very confused.
    I'm also thinking that if, I drop this appeal in order to save my standard daily living then whatever has taken place up to dropping it will go against me when I'm next up for pip assessment and lose it all and then it all starts all over again.

    I have never represented others myself, wasnt qualified to do so, but I worked with people who did the representation, so learnt a few things from them.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Ok worried 33 I understand. 
    I've a few days until thursday to give this a long hard thought.
    I've been so down I dudnt even attend my nieces wedding in Friday. My brother wont be si understanding as you and others have been here. So thank you for being there.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Can anyone tell me if I lost points because I had a rollator and walking sticks on day of the assessment? 
    I did tell the assessor that I only had them a few days before she arrived  but that wasnt acknowledged in her report. I dont like using the rollator outside when I have to travel to hospital or my gp but I do. The worst part of using it is my wife and I can no longer link arms like we used to because the rear wheels tend to trip her up. 
    Maybe someone else has the same problem? 
    Thank you. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    They are both classed as aids for walking so you won't lose points for needing them. This is part of the mobility "moving around" part.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    Hi everyone. I've not been on here for a few days because I've been thinking long and hard about my appeal.  I've sat with my wife and family discussing it. . My wife like myself has been totally stressed out about it. Having sat in the waiting room well past my scheduled time nerves got to us. Since last wed we both have lost a lot of sleep and have eaten very little. On Friday we received a confirmation letter from the appeal office stating w0hy the appeal was adjourned.  They not only list that they want to see MRI scan images, they also added cray scan images, all hospital letters I've attended 4 different hospitals over the past 4 years alone, they also want letters and records from physiotherapy  and OT departments for last 4 years and why my driving licence was removed. The latter is simply I surrendered it myself because of the meds I'm on and dizziness and pain. It's against the law to drink and drive and also drug and drive and also if you take meds which affect your driving and fail to inform the Dylan they can fine you 1,000 pounds and remove your licence. This way I can always ask for it back but I dint intend to.
    So folks because I'm watching my wife very stressed out and I do mean stressed out I'm going to drop my appeal. She has asked me to because she can't cope. 
    Any comments for and against are welcome and thank you.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    The only person that can decide what to do is yourself. It's very difficult to give you any advice on this because no one knows how your conditions affect you. If you do change your mind i would definitely advise you to find a different representative.

    What ever your final decision is good luck.
  • david235david235 Posts: 170Member Pioneering
    @male45 - I understand this is a very distressing and emotional time for you and your wife.


    I want to try to step back from the emotion a little and focus on the task of the First-tier Tribunal in benefits cases.Their task is to look at the arguments put forward by the claimant and the DWP about entitlement to a benefit - in this case PIP - and make a decision that is fair both to the claimant and DWP. The role of the Tribunal is a benefits claim is different to a court. A court merely looks at the case put forwards by both sides and reaches a decision - it is an adversarial system. The First-tier Tribunal enquires into entitlement to benefit based on the evidence before it, often including the ability to question the claimant in person - it is an inquisitorial system.

    The inquisitorial nature of the tribunal means that if it fails to enquire fully into all matters relevant to entitlement to benefit then they fall into error in a way that could lead to their decision being set aside by the Upper Tribunal owing to a breach of natural justice. The doctor clearly has unanswered questions about some medical aspects of your condition and wants confirmatory information - just because this information has been asked for doesn't necessarily mean it will go against you. The information could support your arguments and rebut the doctor's doubt.


    I know an adjournment is not what you wanted - but an accurate decision is in everyone's interests now, especially after all this time. It is far better the doctor says "I have doubts here, I need further information to try to answer my concerns" than the doctor says "I have doubts here, we should rule against this man".


    The driving licence point is answered by writing a letter along the lines of:

    I surrendered my driving licence voluntarily to DVLA on <date> as I believed I no longer met the medical standards to drive owing to impairment from my condition and the medication I take.

    You can then go on to list the specific issues that led to your voluntary surrender - you don't need a massive amount of detail, just a few sentences. If you have the confirmation of voluntary surrender letter to hand, I would enclose a copy. Make sure any papers have your name and NI number on them.


    The rest of the request is likely answered by working with your GP practice - they should be able to assist you with copies of hospital letters and to obtain copies of scans.


    If you drop your appeal now, the original decision will stand and cannot be challenged further. There should be no risk in continuing your appeal so long as you are not notified that the Tribunal is minded to reduce your entitlement to benefit; if you get that notification then you need to consult with your representative as to whether you continue and risk the standard Daily Living award you have or stick with what you have.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    The only person that can decide what to do is yourself. It's very difficult to give you any advice on this because no one knows how your conditions affect you. If you do change your mind i would definitely advise you to find a different representative.

    What ever your final decision is good luck.
    Thank you poppy. I feel like I'm running away. I think if I drop it then I will wait for my reassessment and hopefully pass it health can become worse between now and then so you never know. In the morning I'll post what I've decided and carried out.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    david235 said:
    @male45 - I understand this is a very distressing and emotional time for you and your wife.


    I want to try to step back from the emotion a little and focus on the task of the First-tier Tribunal in benefits cases.Their task is to look at the arguments put forward by the claimant and the DWP about entitlement to a benefit - in this case PIP - and make a decision that is fair both to the claimant and DWP. The role of the Tribunal is a benefits claim is different to a court. A court merely looks at the case put forwards by both sides and reaches a decision - it is an adversarial system. The First-tier Tribunal enquires into entitlement to benefit based on the evidence before it, often including the ability to question the claimant in person - it is an inquisitorial system.

    The inquisitorial nature of the tribunal means that if it fails to enquire fully into all matters relevant to entitlement to benefit then they fall into error in a way that could lead to their decision being set aside by the Upper Tribunal owing to a breach of natural justice. The doctor clearly has unanswered questions about some medical aspects of your condition and wants confirmatory information - just because this information has been asked for doesn't necessarily mean it will go against you. The information could support your arguments and rebut the doctor's doubt.


    I know an adjournment is not what you wanted - but an accurate decision is in everyone's interests now, especially after all this time. It is far better the doctor says "I have doubts here, I need further information to try to answer my concerns" than the doctor says "I have doubts here, we should rule against this man".


    The driving licence point is answered by writing a letter along the lines of:

    I surrendered my driving licence voluntarily to DVLA on <date> as I believed I no longer met the medical standards to drive owing to impairment from my condition and the medication I take.

    You can then go on to list the specific issues that led to your voluntary surrender - you don't need a massive amount of detail, just a few sentences. If you have the confirmation of voluntary surrender letter to hand, I would enclose a copy. Make sure any papers have your name and NI number on them.


    The rest of the request is likely answered by working with your GP practice - they should be able to assist you with copies of hospital letters and to obtain copies of scans.


    If you drop your appeal now, the original decision will stand and cannot be challenged further. There should be no risk in continuing your appeal so long as you are not notified that the Tribunal is minded to reduce your entitlement to benefit; if you get that notification then you need to consult with your representative as to whether you continue and risk the standard Daily Living award you have or stick with what you have.
    Thank you David. You have given me food for thought.  I have to decide in the morning as to what to do. 
    I will post back when I do. 

  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    @poppy123456
    @david235
    Good morning folks.
    Well after a long debate through the night as both my wife and I couldn't sleep and meeting with the guy representing us, we've decided to carry on with the appeal. 
    We also mentioned to the guy that we didn't think he was up to par on our case and asked for the manager and received a new person to represent us. Immediately he completed forms giving him permission to obtain our medical history of trays and MRI taken on my spine and any consultant letters to accompany them. He advised us on this and that and we left feeling more achieved with him in that one hour than with the other guy in 12 months.
    Ty folks.

  • ricky1040ricky1040 Posts: 93Member Courageous
    @male45 i am also from belfast and attended the tribunal and found it very daunting but in the end ok. if you have the medical evidence to back you up and go in and be honest you should be fine. have you requested a public access request with your gp and hospital. that would give you everything they hold on you and be with you within 30days.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 12,678Community champion Disability Gamechanger
    @male45 i'm glad you have a different rep. Good luck and do let us know the outcome.
  • david235david235 Posts: 170Member Pioneering
    Sometimes starting over with someone different gives a much clearer idea of the way ahead.

    I am glad you and your wife are continuing, @male45 . I know it is not easy, but at least this way you should get a fair hearing and find closure in the end. You needed support you felt confident about and it feels like you have now found that level of support from the manager.

    I would discuss writing a latter about voluntary surrender of your driving licence along the lines I suggested with the advice provider when appropriate. That way, alongside the medical records they are obtaining for you, you've covered everything the Tribunal has requested.


    Wishing you and your wife all the best.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    edited September 12
    ricky1040 said:
    @male45 i am also from belfast and attended the tribunal and found it very daunting but in the end ok. if you have the medical evidence to back you up and go in and be honest you should be fine. have you requested a public access request with your gp and hospital. that would give you everything they hold on you and be with you within 30days.
    Hi @ricky1040
    Wet old day here eh, 
    I find going into Belfast very stressful as you may have read my previous posts ref citybus driver troubles etc. So an appeal added in the feelings are sky high stress.
    I got 17 pages printed both sides dating back 5 yes from my gp. That's what the other rep asked me to get apart from some letters of appointments that's about all I had 
    I've never been for an appeal before so replied on my other rep to advise me.
    I dont know what a public access request is so nope haven't, could you tell me more plz?
    Ricky can you say what type of questions they possibly pose at you, o know they can ask anything and everything  also how long you were waiting to be seen then how long your appeal lasted?
    Were you successful?
    Thank you. Great talking to ya
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    david235 said:
    Sometimes starting over with someone different gives a much clearer idea of the way ahead.

    I am glad you and your wife are continuing, @male45 . I know it is not easy, but at least this way you should get a fair hearing and find closure in the end. You needed support you felt confident about and it feels like you have now found that level of support from the manager.

    I would discuss writing a latter about voluntary surrender of your driving licence along the lines I suggested with the advice provider when appropriate. That way, alongside the medical records they are obtaining for you, you've covered everything the Tribunal has requested.


    Wishing you and your wife all the best.
    Hil [email protected] 
    Yes I mentioned the driving licence to him and he suggested same advice as yourself so thank you for that and all help and advice given.
    My head feels a little more clearer now I've had a bite to eat. He did say that by time we do get another appeal date it won't be the same three panel members as 6 panels sit in belfast on pip and two panels for ESA.
    The whole process is extremely stressful and on top of it all I'm up for reassessment next July as my letter with the points from last july recommended. 
    He said he would ask the panel if next July could be extended. 
    I know he can't promise that and it can't be certain that three different members see us but it gives us hope.
    Best wishes 
  • ricky1040ricky1040 Posts: 93Member Courageous
    Hey @male45 i worked for translink also for 10 years. 

    Um don't quote me on this but i think i qaited about 6-7 months maybe for my appeal. 

    You can ask them to re look at it all or some of your application and score it. 

    They ask you questions re the criteria and also anything else they find important along the way. For instance i am partially sighted and they noticed i was wearing a watch and asked how i managed to read it. I have a smart one set up with accessible features and was abke to show them this. Have to say tho i found them very accomadating and kind hearted but not to say thats always the case or means they are on a particular side. A man from dwpensions was also present and basically when asked for his input had no comment other than to say he thought my case was genuine.

    I had a bucket load of gp documents also and i think that helped a lot as i have had lots of scans mri and the like done. 

    One thing i was told to bear in mind is to tell them how you feel the majority of the time and not some days this way some days thay way... the decision is based on the majority of how you feel. 


    I was successful but have to do it all again in four years. Eeeek..

    Good luck and i hope you get a fair outcome.






  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    ricky1040 said:
    Hey @male45 i worked for translink also for 10 years. 

    Um don't quote me on this but i think i qaited about 6-7 months maybe for my appeal. 

    You can ask them to re look at it all or some of your application and score it. 

    They ask you questions re the criteria and also anything else they find important along the way. For instance i am partially sighted and they noticed i was wearing a watch and asked how i managed to read it. I have a smart one set up with accessible features and was abke to show them this. Have to say tho i found them very accomadating and kind hearted but not to say thats always the case or means they are on a particular side. A man from dwpensions was also present and basically when asked for his input had no comment other than to say he thought my case was genuine.

    I had a bucket load of gp documents also and i think that helped a lot as i have had lots of scans mri and the like done. 

    One thing i was told to bear in mind is to tell them how you feel the majority of the time and not some days this way some days thay way... the decision is based on the majority of how you feel. 


    I was successful but have to do it all again in four years. Eeeek..

    Good luck and i hope you get a fair outcome.






    Hi @ricky1040
    Great to meet a fellow colleague.
    Most of the guys I worked with are sadly no longer with us passing with one thing or another we were a right knit group but now I think there's only four of us left two immigrated and the third I've no clue where he is. My brother in law medically retired from citybus after me. He's lost his sight fully. He had a pip assessment in town and one of the questions he was asked was can you drive lol, my sister who's a nurse went through the assessor that day.
    He got full enhancement on both needles to say.
    I have to say Ricky, I'd rather drive through a riot than sit for this appeal I'm finding it very stressful.
    I unlike you dont have a bucket load of medical notes. I only got two mris on my back and two x Ray's. The mris were just to confirm what the x Ray's showed. The rest of the notes contain my medicines and trying to bring my high blood pressure down and other stuff. All together 17 pages printed on both sides. I find going to my go very stressful that's if I ever get an appointment  passed mini Hitler receptionists. 
    The drs surgery is right on the spot where I was last hijacked and burned out. I even have a photo of it.
    Theres a website that contains a list of all buses burnt out for certain years. Classesbuses.co.uk the pages for citybus are bright red. My bus is listed as 776 on left hand side of the page.
    I've heard some panels can be nice and others not so.
    To me if any one is nice to me I stop trusting them and try thinking am I getting it in the back.
    I dont wear a watch, I threw mine away the day after leaving the buses, maybe you'll understand why lol.
    I'm glad you got your pip well done.
    The other rep I used to have said I didn't have a lot going medically wise in paper form evidence. Now reading about yours I know what he means.
    My new rep completed forms I signed and they've been posted off to various hospitals where I had my x rays and mris. Again probably one or two sheets will come back from them.
    I think then itll be up to me to talk at the appeal and try painting them a good picture of how my disability affects me daily. Like you said the majority of the time.
    Well Ricky I hope you are able to settle back and enjoy life a bit more now your appeal is over.
    Would you be getting seen for cataract removals or does that not come into it  my brother in law may be.
    Best wishes Ricky and thank you for replying to me. Keep in touch I'm always around if you fancy chatting

  • ricky1040ricky1040 Posts: 93Member Courageous
    @male45 sounds like you have been through the ringer. Lol i do know what u mean about the watch lol. I worked in the ticket office in europa and head office at milewater for a while too. 

    Yea was a weight off mynshoulders to get it all finalised and wish you the best of luck also.
  • male45male45 Posts: 26Member Pioneering
    @ricky1040
    Hi ricky , I've probably passed you in the Europa at some point. Heard mile water hq has moved.
    How long were you in interrogation , I've heard some are only a matter of 15 minutes where others can be half hour and an hour which was the case of whoever was in before me last week.
    I found the building intimidating and when I went into the reception area two guys were sitting just inside the doors chatting, later was told they were dwp waiting to go into their cases, one was fir mine. 
    I assume they watched me as I made my way to the seating area.
    I dont know how long itll take for another date for me I just hope its after I get any image scans and not before.
    www.classicbuses.co.uk I think I misspelled it orevious

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