PIP, DLA and AA
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PIP appeal problem

Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
edited August 2 in PIP, DLA and AA
In january 2020 at southend magistates court i appealed against a PIP decision,
i lost the appeal after the judge used a letter that contained a list of machines
i tried to use at the Cluny HUBs free gym.the list had been clipped and a later
date added and then photo copied by a person unknown presumably at the DLA,this
was then presented at the appeal without my having previously seen it or having
been sent a copy of the altered document by the Courts,the altered list was then
used to suggest i had written i could walk for miles,ride two bikes and paddle a
canoe,i was not given the oppertunity to refute how the content was presented and
mearly asked by the judge (who i know and dislikes me) to read the selected passage
without being asked for an explanation of what was written,when i tried to ask about
the context of the page the judge ended the appeal and told me to leave the court,
later that day i phoned the Court of Appeal and they sent me an upper court appeal
form.I have macular degeneration and have had two strokes so my writing is almost
unreadable so i took the letter to the CAB Southend to compleat,i was told to first
contact the courts and ask for a statement of reasons this i did and after i received
it back took it to the CAB,in the statement she used the altered passage (i can walk
about about a mile) as the main reason for refusing my appeal for mobility allowance,

The woman who specialized in DLA cases (Mrs B.) had taken some days off work,so
photocopies of my documents were taken at the CAB and i was asked for any other documents
i had in regards to the case.i returned the paperwork to the CAB a few day later and
was told the court had already sent them the evidence that had been used at the tribunal
included the altered list,i phoned the CAB every few days and  was told it was being
looked into by the expert and allow a few weeks,these passed without any further contact
from the CAB and with only two week left to appeal and the CAB having the altered letter
i visited the office again,i met Mrs B. and was asked for any documents i had in
connnection with the case,i told her they already had them and i wanted them back she
told me they had lost them!,she said i quote ''ill have a rummage round and try to find them''.

On the 25th March i received a letter from Mrs B. telling me she had finally had
an answer from the court saying it was too late to appeal and from the 20th of March she
was working from home,i phoned the Court of Appeal and was told Mrs B. had made no
contact with them at any point in time and it was not too late to appeal,the courts were
very upset but fortunatly i had two days left,however due to the Covid-19 lockdown my
appeal would be put on hold until i could get my paperwork back from the CAB affices,i
have phoned the CAB office dozens of times and visited at least five with no answer.

The girls at the HUB helped me wth this until the lockdwn,now i have no one.

[Names removed by moderator]


Replies

  • steve51steve51 Community champion Posts: 6,940 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Shaun_Hobbs

    Welcome to our online community/family.

    I am one of a number of Community Champion’s here at Scope.

    Sorry to here about your “pip benefit journey”

    We have got a member who is very knowledgeable when it comes to Benefit’s.

     Hi @poppy123456

    Sorry but I just come across this pip post.

    They have had a right time with there pip benefit & they are in need of both help & advice!!!!!!

    @steve51
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    edited July 30
    Mate that sucks massively, they need to realise that even ill people need to exercise. I had an UC tribunal the other day and the judge and the Dr were both arses, they tried implying that becuase I walk round the block once a day, on the advice of My physio and as part of My treatment, that constitutes being able to repeatedly mobilise more than 200m, absolute **** hats. Unfortunately these laws/criteria are deliberately vague and open to interpretation, which is wrong imo. And as for the tribunal being "independant" hahahahaha, how can any tribunal be independant if it works for the government and is funded by the dwp, complete farce and if You aren't dying or nearly dead You're screwed. Need to get a campaign together but no-one around here seems interested in doing anything or challenging anything.
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    What worries me is the delay at the DLA,i visit every oppertunity i can and they are not answerig my emails either,also if some of my writting looks odd  its because i have macular degeneration and cant see very well.
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    Mate that sucks massively, they need to realise that even ill people need to exercise. I had an UC tribunal the other day and the judge and the Dr were both arses, they tried implying that becuase I walk round the block once a day, on the advice of My physio and as part of My treatment, that constitutes being able to repeatedly mobilise more than 200m, absolute **** hats. Unfortunately these laws/criteria are deliberately vague and open to interpretation, which is wrong imo. And as for the tribunal being "independant" hahahahaha, how can any tribunal be independant if it works for the government and is funded by the dwp, complete farce and if You aren't dying or nearly dead You're screwed. Need to get a campaign together but no-one around here seems interested in doing anything or challenging anything.

    The Hub gym shut in march and I had my supervised physio cancelled the very same week it started at the hospital that was after a five year wait.
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited July 30
    The apprentice magistrate who oversaw the case knows me,she kicked my door open once,
    standing with her and trying to restrain her were two policemen,she was trying to get my
    neighbour to turn his music down and had the wrong address,a relation of hers lived above me
    and he called her,luckily i knew one of the officers and  he told her to stop,we had a huge row
    on the doorstep,she came back on her own and told me to tell the music guy she was coming
    back with a warrent,womans a lunatic,i made a complant about her.

  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    Yeah exactly, so how can that possibly be "impartial" or "independant"? Joke mate :(
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    Sounds like You were cross examined like a criminal like I was pal, utter **** hats
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    edited July 30
    I genuinely felt like I was on trial
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    Shouldn't be about that it should be about overturning the original decision because they are invariably wrong
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 2
    Yeah exactly, so how can that possibly be "impartial" or "independant"? Joke mate :(
    That was not our only meeting,she was the magistrate at another tribunal that i won against
    the DHSS,she kept calling me the defendant until the clerk had to tell it was me that brought
    the case,she thought an appelant was the defendant,she also said in front of a dozen witnesses
    she did not care about the law,the clerk laughed and she went mental and threaten to have his
    job.

    Her name is [removed by moderator],
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    From gov.uk website: https://www.gov.uk/appeal-benefit-decision very clearly says "appeal a BENEFIT DECISION" not "be put on trial and reassessed and have all previous evidence ignored"

  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    From gov.uk website: https://www.gov.uk/appeal-benefit-decision very clearly says "appeal a BENEFIT DECISION" not "be put on trial and reassessed and have all previous evidence ignored"


    Oddly enough i wrote out a list of my objections and mistakes in both of the assesments and gave each member of the bench a copy,she glaced at it the threw aside and said  ''I dont need this,i have everything i need in the assesors report''.
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 194 Pioneering
    Hey and welcome how did they know you went to the gym ? Did the gym just tell them ? 

    It’s a joke that exercising goes against you 
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    cupcake88 said:
    Hey and welcome how did they know you went to the gym ? Did the gym just tell them ? 

    It’s a joke that exercising goes against you 
    The gym was fine i wrote to the DLA explaning after my accident and stroke
    i used four machines at the gym,as such,see below.


    I can walk about one mile
    I can ride about one mile
    i can ride about one mile
    I can row about one mile


    A full explanation was originally written on the back of the piece of paper,i used
    this note as my writing was so bad and this was already made out before i had
    my stroke,in court someone had photocopied just the four lines and not the reverse
    containing the explantion and wrote a date of 1019 on it,the judge asked me to read
    the first line and nothing else saying 'i cannot read your writing'' then ended the
    tribunal then and there without letting me question were the letter came from or how
    it was presented.

    I started to question it and was interupted by the DLA DR who suggested ''You mean you
    can walk one mile with your painkillers'' i said no and was told to leave the court.


  • laurapeachlaurapeach Member Posts: 44 Courageous
    @poppy123456 and @mikehughescq are both very knowledgeable about tribunals etc so I have tagged them to see if they have suggestions for you.

    The tribunals aren't paid by the DWP by the way, they're part of Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service which are entirely independent of the DWP and PIP.

    What explanation was written on the back of the piece of paper? If you can walk about one mile you wouldn't be eligible for the mobility part of PIP as the limit is only being able to walk 200 metres reliably, repeatedly and safely, if you can walk a mile at a time they would so no to that I'm pretty sure.
    Mum of one, I have M.E/CFS and POTS.
  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,143 Pioneering
    edited July 31
    When I first tried getting DLA I had some issues because I filled the form in myself and did it incorrectly. I was refused but appealed. When I attended I had a better idea of what I should have put but was advised not to change it, I lost the appeal. I tried again about a year later with the help of someone from MIND but again was refused. I appealed again and it turned out the woman hadn't written what I had said and it got refused again by exactly the same judge and accompanying professionals, which isn't supposed to happen. Another year went by before I tried again and this time I had the help from someone at the CAB and she did a better job but still I only got low rate mobility and I appealed again and lo and behold I got the same judge for a third time. This judge refuse d me and took away what I did have for the reason that "It isn't my job to give you a free car". I consulted with the lady from the CAB and we asked for a "Statement of Reasons". It was supposed to be sent within 6 weeks but took 3 months to actually get sent out. The lady from the CAB said there was nothing we could do. So I pointed out 5 outright lies in the statement and commented on another half dozen dubious points so she said she would get back to me. The next day she rang and had spoken with a Barrister friend who agreed with me. Consequently we applied to the High Court of Appeal and soon after that the judges decision was thrown out by the Clerk to the High Court (not the Court itself) as being non-factual and I was given a new appeal. This time I finally got a different judge and a successful appeal of High rate Mobility and Medium Rate Care backdated to the date of the third attempt (18 months). This also meant I could get ESA but they refused to backdate that at all, said it didn't apply or meet the demands of reasons to backdate.

    Since then I have had to reapply for DLA once and switch to PIP. On both attempts I had a person from DWP visit me at home and fill the forms in for me. Both were successful because the people didn't just take my word for simple things but made me consider everything I automatically did without thinking, which also made things more difficult than even I considered.

    I only applied at all the first time because when I asked my doctor if I was disabled he said "Yes, and you have been for about a year". The total time from start to finish was about 4 and a half years.

    If I hadn't been able to understand and contest the Statement of Reasons or if the lady at the CAB hadn't had that friend I probably still wouldn't have got help.

    The system is detestable and even worse now than it was then.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    Once again I note I’ve been tagged in and find myself reading the thread with increasing concern. Could I politely ask people to not tag me in? I’ll read what I can when I can and contributed if I’ve the time or think there’s a need. Sometimes I may have time and think there’s a need but simply not bother because there are other things I’d rather be doing. 

    The last thread I was tagged in on was started by @KingKongsFinger and I note that some of the misapprehensions expressed there have been repeated here along with some new ones so let’s tackle those head on before addressing the original post.

    1 - calling a judge and medical professional “arses” suggests you’re entering the tribunal room with an idea of what their role is that is removed from the reality. As observed in the other thread people generally (not always but generally) get the appeal hearing they deserve in terms of how much they attempted to understand the PIP regs and the role of a tribunal. 

    Being offensive is a great way to make enemies of the very people you want on your side. Calling them names for the possibly entirely reasonable conclusion they drew based on what you have posted here is akin to shopping yourself in the foot. 

    2 - KingKongsFinger said:
    Unfortunately these laws/criteria are deliberately vague and open to interpretation, which is wrong imo. And as for the tribunal being "independant" hahahahaha, how can any tribunal be independant if it works for the government and is funded by the dwp, complete farce and if You aren't dying or nearly dead You're screwed. Need to get a campaign together but no-one around here seems interested in doing anything or challenging anything.
    Both the above statements are wrong and misleading for other posters. The PIP regs, guidance and caselaw paint a pretty clear picture on most descriptors and certainly the ref you reference doesn’t say what you say it does. Your zero points comes from 

     2. Moving around.
    a. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.  0 points.”

    There’s no repeatedly requirement in that wording. If you can go that far once then zero  points is correct. If you get up and walk round the block once and the dust above us anywhere near 200m (and most “blocks” would be far more) then you have “stood” and “moved”. There’s nothing either vague or open to interpretation there at all. 

    As has also been pointed out here and in the other thread HMCTS have nothing to do with government and are no longer funded by DWP at the very top end. Expressing an opinion as fact is a breach of the terms of this site. Having it brought to your attention by several posters and then repeating it... hmm.

    As regards the original post on this thread then I’m afraid this looks like another case of authoring your own misfortune and desperately needing advice and representation. My expectation is that anyone with macular degeneration and presumably with explicit and  ongoing consequences of a stroke would comfortably qualify for both components for PIP for at least 3 to 5 years but, depending on how far advanced the MD is, could potentially qualify on that alone. The fact you’re able to post here and also lost the appeal suggests to me not so much an injustice as at least a question mark as to the severity of your conditions at present. Something that would need to be discussed further with an adviser at minimum. 

    I don’t know on what basis you “know” the judge or indeed know that they dislike you but you will always have the chance to object to their presence if you’re known to each other outside the tribunal room and to object if you think they know more of your circumstances than the other two tribunal members. Going ahead or not knowing who the judge was was in your control so if you chose to go ahead then it’s Simply too late to raise that issue now. The moment to do that was on the day. The moment has gone and even if you were able to get the matter to UT I have my doubts as to whether they would be especially sympathetic to your failure to object to the judge on the day.

    As regards documents you’d not seen before I’m afraid I’m not convinced we’re getting the full picture here. If you’d not seen it before you could have asked for an adjournment to consider your response. If you’d not seen it before how could you know it had been “altered”? Tribunals do not spring new evidence on appellants on the day without offering the chance to adjourn. I’m afraid this part of the tale lacks sufficient detail or credibility to comment on further. 

    As you appear to have sprung documents on the tribunal on the day I again think some perspective is required.

    As regards a late appeal to the UT there are 2 issues:

    1 - you may wish to query with your local CA why the deadline was missed and why a late application was not made? That’s between you and them.

    2 - you did not need anything back from CA in order to pursue the matter yourself. The UT1 form is available online and you could get a further copy of both your appeal paints and the statement of reasons by contacting HMCTS. C-19 really doesn’t come into play. This may well still be rectifiable but you will need to move quickly. 
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 2

    My expectation  is that anyone with macular degeneration and presumably with explicit and  ongoing consequences of a stroke would comfortably qualify for both components for PIP for at least 3 to 5 years but, depending on how far advanced the MD is.


    Wrong on both accounts,MDs did not conduct either of the PIP assesments or the initial refusal by the DLA.they mearly provided a mountain of evidence  to them. 


    I don’t know on what basis you “know” the judge or indeed know that they dislike you.

    Read the whole post first before commenting again.


    More waffle: As you appear to have sprung documents on the tribunal on the day I again think some perspective is required.

    The court presented the forged/illegal note not me.



    As regards a late appeal to the UT there are 2 issues:

    1 - you may wish to query with your local CA why the deadline was missed and why a late application was not made? That’s between you and them.


    All CAB offices have been shut since  March and The CAB has the only copy of the note,the explantion they gave me is clearly written in the second paragraph.



    2 - you did not need anything back from CA in order to pursue the matter yourself. The UT1 form is available online and you could get a further copy of both your appeal 'paints' and the statement of reasons by contacting HMCTS. C-19 really doesn’t come into play. This may well still be rectifiable but you will need to move quickly.


    I did get a UT1 form,the CAB volenteered to fill it in.
    The illegal/forged note is pivital to my appeal to the Upper court,again it is the only copy.
    In the statement of reasons the judge uses the fake note as the reason for refusing my appeal.


    [Removed by moderator - Please remember to be civil]











  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    Good luck finding someone with more than 34 years experience as a welfare rights adviser then. I'll respond further later but you are regrettably way off beam.
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 1
    Luck is generally not the best qualification needed when seeking legal advice.

    Dont bother,im reporting you.


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 19,101 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 1
    Please only use the spam function when needed. It's not there to be used because you don't agree with another members advice. Mike is the best person to give any advice, on an internet forum.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • laurapeachlaurapeach Member Posts: 44 Courageous
    The DWP don't care about the diagnosis, they just want to know how it affects your ability to live your daily life. If you can walk a mile then you won't be eligible for the mobility component.

    Do you need aids around the house to help you complete the daily living activities? So do you need an aid to help you cook a meal, or do you need an aid to help you shower? Those are what they are asking you to explain.

    What was on the explanation on the back of the illegal/forged note the judge was given? And can you prove that it was altered? If you're looking for better advice than what Mike has given you then you're going to need to pay for a solicitor.
    Mum of one, I have M.E/CFS and POTS.
  • bubster20bubster20 Member Posts: 7 Connected
    If you’re looking for legal advice,  a public forum isn’t where I’d start! That aside....

    When Mike stated “MD” I’m  pretty certain he was using the initials for macular degeneration.....not referring to an alternative term for a GP etc.  It might be an idea to for you to also “read it again” 😳

    You should be able to get a copy of the note or any other part of the papers from the DWP submission by contacting them.  

    Finally, whilst I appreciate you are obviously annoyed with the situation, it’s easy to just be nice....especially when asking for help 🙂!


  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 1
    What explanation was written on the back of the piece of paper?

    The back was originally the front,if that makes sense.


    The gym has five machines,they are as such

    1 walking machine.
    1 recumbent bicycle.
    1 upright bicycle.
    1 rowing machine.
    1 cross trainer.


    Side 1.(front)

    I can only use four of the five,i have two herniated discs and the cross trainers action going up and down  makes it incredibly painful to use,the recumbent i can use very briefly and the other three i can use for short periods,normally under a mile.

    The HUB at Cluny where the gym is situated is 65m from my house and is open five
    days a week however they have a very busy schedule and many differing groups use
    the main building and the gym cannot be used on many days as it is in an adjoining
    room and may disturb other users,i have a sleep disorder and rarely get more than
    one hour sleep at night and rest in the morning so i am limited to using the machines
    on two of the afternoons and one morning if i feel strong enough or rise in time,for
    use of the machines see overleaf.


    Side 2. (back)

    I can walk about one mile
    I can ride about one mile 
    I can ride about one mile
    I can row about one mile


    The paper i was shown in court just had only side two and on the reverse someone
    had written  something i could not see or read and a date claimed by the judge to
    be 2019,i used this piece of paper because my writing had deteriorated to the point
    of being illegible and as the description explained what was written overleaf i
    thought it was reasonable to submit it,the paper was obviously written prior to my
    second stroke in 2018 when my writting was poor but legible


    The HUB team are willing to provide evidence to the veracity of my use of the
    machines.as the above was not written by me and was dictated to and written by a
    member of the HUB staff and the DLA have the original,i cannot be totally precise
    of the wording but this is an approximation,perhaps this explains my need to get
    the altered copy back.
















  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,143 Pioneering
    Sometimes I wonder why I come here and this is a prime example. Someone expresses a personal opinion, which everyone has a right to do and, if someone else disagrees then it becomes a "who's more important" string of disagreements. Sometimes I just want to say "Behave children!".

    No one should be frightened to express their opinion and if people disagree violently they should either skip to the next post without commenting or block and / or report something they believe to be inflammatory and leave it up to the mods to decide.

    Mike is right about one thing though, other people should not volunteer people into commenting except by posting to that persons wall "I'd appreciate it if you would check out this post" and leave it to the person to decide whether they are busy elsewhere or not. Pressure should never be applied to others to comment.

    We all have differing views and needs, use intelligence to sort things out and not inflammatory speeches.

    Anyone dislikes my comments use my wall, not this post to say so.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • bubster20bubster20 Member Posts: 7 Connected
    I don’t dislike your post Topkitten but I do disagree with some of it.  The OP didn’t just express an opinion, he asked for advice.  The fact is he didn’t like the advice given 🤷🏻‍♀️.  
    I’m new on scope and even just in the month I’ve spent reading through hundreds of posts I can see that is a common theme. People seem to become confrontational when it’s not as they expect to hear.  It took me that month to pluck plus the courage to post and that is exactly why!! It’s a shame because there is such a wealth of information available on here and if I took your suggestion of skipping posts then sadly that wouldn’t be uncommon 😕.  

    Ps.  I as I said, didn’t dislike your post so assumed ok to comment and also, being new, I have zero clue what the “wall” is or how to find it, sorry 😊
  • SussexAndySussexAndy Member Posts: 12 Courageous
    Hey Shaun 

    Sounds to me that you were not given a fair trial.   Article 6 of the Human Rights Act, covers both Criminal, Civil and tribunal proceedings.   https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-trial

    Being that your situation may well be a Human Rights violation you should be able to get full funding for a solicitor.   Tell the CAB to do one and seek legal Aid.  Then find yourself a Human Rights specialist.   

    You should get quick results from that.


    All the best 
    Andy

  • TopkittenTopkitten Member Posts: 1,143 Pioneering
    @bubster20, I have no objection to being criticized, I would just prefer it not to derail any thread. You access the wall by clicking on someone's name and there is an option there to add comments.

    I've nothing further to say on this thread/

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 1
    Topkitten said:
    When I first tried getting DLA I had some issues because I filled the form in myself and did it incorrectly. I was refused but appealed. When I attended I had a better idea of what I should have put but was advised not to change it, I lost the appeal. I tried again about a year later with the help of someone from MIND but again was refused. I appealed again and it turned out the woman hadn't written what I had said and it got refused again by exactly the same judge and accompanying professionals, which isn't supposed to happen. Another year went by before I tried again and this time I had the help from someone at the CAB and she did a better job but still I only got low rate mobility and I appealed again and lo and behold I got the same judge for a third time. This judge refuse d me and took away what I did have for the reason that "It isn't my job to give you a free car". I consulted with the lady from the CAB and we asked for a "Statement of Reasons". It was supposed to be sent within 6 weeks but took 3 months to actually get sent out. The lady from the CAB said there was nothing we could do. So I pointed out 5 outright lies in the statement and commented on another half dozen dubious points so she said she would get back to me. The next day she rang and had spoken with a Barrister friend who agreed with me. Consequently we applied to the High Court of Appeal and soon after that the judges decision was thrown out by the Clerk to the High Court (not the Court itself) as being non-factual and I was given a new appeal. This time I finally got a different judge and a successful appeal of High rate Mobility and Medium Rate Care backdated to the date of the third attempt (18 months). This also meant I could get ESA but they refused to backdate that at all, said it didn't apply or meet the demands of reasons to backdate.

    Since then I have had to reapply for DLA once and switch to PIP. On both attempts I had a person from DWP visit me at home and fill the forms in for me. Both were successful because the people didn't just take my word for simple things but made me consider everything I automatically did without thinking, which also made things more difficult than even I considered.

    I only applied at all the first time because when I asked my doctor if I was disabled he said "Yes, and you have been for about a year". The total time from start to finish was about 4 and a half years.

    If I hadn't been able to understand and contest the Statement of Reasons or if the lady at the CAB hadn't had that friend I probably still wouldn't have got help.

    The system is detestable and even worse now than it was then.

    TK
    'The system is detestable'

    Agreed,and im glad you resolved the problem,.

    The expert at Southend CAB is i believe,a plant,in the case that i won against
    the DHSS she told me to drop the court case because i would not win and to make
    a new claim,even more strange was the fact i had a letter from ATOS admitting
    they caused the problem by cancelling my appointment,this time she wasted 3 months
    before telling me to give up and make another new claim,she also said my money
    would be back dated if i was granted PIP,however she failed to mention that that
    only covered the benifit they awarded me,so if i only recieved Daily living i
    would lose all the mobility for nearly 4 years.


  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    bubster20 said:
    I don’t dislike your post Topkitten but I do disagree with some of it.  The OP didn’t just express an opinion, he asked for advice.  The fact is he didn’t like the advice given 🤷🏻‍♀️.  
    I’m new on scope and even just in the month I’ve spent reading through hundreds of posts I can see that is a common theme. People seem to become confrontational when it’s not as they expect to hear.  It took me that month to pluck plus the courage to post and that is exactly why!! It’s a shame because there is such a wealth of information available on here and if I took your suggestion of skipping posts then sadly that wouldn’t be uncommon 😕.  

    Ps.  I as I said, didn’t dislike your post so assumed ok to comment and also, being new, I have zero clue what the “wall” is or how to find it, sorry 😊
    'he didn’t like the advice given'

    Pllease list any 'advice' he offered that had not previously been covered in any of the posts,clearly you are both wasting your valuable time here,move on.
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Administrator Posts: 7,347 Scope community team
    I’m going to state this clearly before another thread tumbles out of control: the discussion here may continue but only with civility. If the tone of this thread continues in the same vein, the thread will be closed.

    It is okay to disagree but please remember to comment on the content of the post, rather than the poster.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 1
    Hey Shaun 

    Sounds to me that you were not given a fair trial.   Article 6 of the Human Rights Act, covers both Criminal, Civil and tribunal proceedings.   https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-trial

    Being that your situation may well be a Human Rights violation you should be able to get full funding for a solicitor.   Tell the CAB to do one and seek legal Aid.  Then find yourself a Human Rights specialist.   

    You should get quick results from that.


    All the best 
    Andy

    I would but my evidence has been locked up in their Southend office since the 20th of march,the
    note the judge used in court was not in my bundle from HM Courts & Tribunals and they want to
    see it too,i phoned them on 25th March 2020 and they were furious,the guy told me he had my
    files in front of him and Mrs B at the CAB had made no contact with them whatsoever and the
    letter she had sent me dated 25th March was total nonsense,they want to see that letter too,but
    i have had no access to a scanner sinse the HUB shut on the 26th March,he recommended i need
    to get the files back and get representation and legal advice,to be honest i cant fault HM Courts &
    Tribunals they have been really helpful,it was the 'expert' at CAB who caused the problems.


    I came here hoping someone could recommend a good legal team and advice on how to get my
    papers back,iv been going to the CAB office for months and phoning weekly and even wrote a
    letter (email) to the CAB main office in july asking for them to return the papers and have had
    no reply or answers to anything.






  • poppy123456poppy123456 Community champion Posts: 19,101 Disability Gamechanger
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 1
    bubster20 said:
    If you’re looking for legal advice,  a public forum isn’t where I’d start! That aside....

    When Mike stated “MD” I’m  pretty certain he was using the initials for macular degeneration.....not referring to an alternative term for a GP etc.  It might be an idea to for you to also “read it again” 😳

    You should be able to get a copy of the note or any other part of the papers from the DWP submission by contacting them.  

    Finally, whilst I appreciate you are obviously annoyed with the situation, it’s easy to just be nice....especially when asking for help 🙂!



    If the DWP were happy to produce a redacted letter (fraud) to a lower court without
    giving the HM Courts & Tribunals notice or a copy i doubt they would send the original
    back to the very person who would in all likelihood be giving it straight to the Upper
    Court as evidence of that fraud.


    And here you seriously suggest they would provide evidence against themselves?


    'obviously annoyed'
    Unlikely,not faced with that level of argument  :)








  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected

    Hmm,it directed me to the CAB.

    Thanks for trying though.
  • SussexAndySussexAndy Member Posts: 12 Courageous
    If I was in your position I would start at the front of the bread trail.  Go back to CAB and seek one of the following:

    Ask for your original evidence back or copies of it.
    Ask for copies of any other information that they have received from any other 3rd party. 
    Ask for a brief statement to why they are unable to provide this information to you.  I find the use of a Pre-Written tick box high beneficial in the past.  All they need to do is tick a statement which best describes the situation.   IE.   You can create a statement with a tick box stating Information sort has been lost / cannot be found.   and Source of information and who to contact leaving a little space. 


    If they are unable to provide you with the evidence, the source, and or no copies are available then there is no case against you.  Although the same can be said the other way around as your technically the injured party the burden of prove is on them and not you. 


    All you need to do is prove that you have done everything you can in your power to obtain the documents.  DWP for one has to legally hold all records in your case for several years possibly life as they are the DWP.   Similar to medical records


    I would also suggest that you look at the online assessment and be truthful to yourself when completing.  
    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-self-test 


    The list of equipment which they state you have used may well be accurate or may not be.  In your own admission you say you can use 4 out of 5 machines to some level of degree.   I wish that I could use a single one of them but I cant.   Pip is intended as an additional payment to help with daily difficulties although you might not meet the criteria you may meet the criteria of other benefits.     A benefits advisor may assist you.  but your get a lot of up-to-date information from that site above to help you


    All the best 

    Andy





  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2
    Thank you @Adrian_Scope. That’s much appreciated.

    [Removed by moderator - no longer relevant]

    In response to earlier comments.

    1 - I can’t see if my post has been reported as spam but as the OP has MD I’m happy to give the benefit of the doubt as to intent. The buttons are not what I would call user-friendly nor accessible. I note the abusive post aimed at me but as someone else has reported it I don’t see the need to comment further at this stage. 

    I do apologise Shaun for the length of my posts as I do appreciate having MD and trying to read is exhausting. 

    2 - I’m afraid your macular degeneration unfortunately isn’t helping you here @Shaun_Hobbs. My use of MD was as an abbreviation for macular degeneration as @bubster20 kindly pointed out. I also made no comments at all as to who conducted your assessments.

    3 - You described 2 scenarios in which you and your judge had encountered each other previously. The moment you were aware who it was you should have requested a postponement. The fact you went ahead anyway harms your case.

    4 - It’s now apparent there is no forged/illegal note here. There has been a simple clerical failure to make an accurate photocopy and on the day it became apparent the bundles didn't match and you didn’t have what the panel had. At that point you should have requested an adjournment. It also needs to be said again that this is unlikely to be DWP deceiving HMCTS. This is much more likely to be a photocopying **** up by a HMCTS clerk. It’s not uncommon. Again, the failure to do so harms your case. 

    5 - all Citizens Advice offices have not been shut since March. Most staff have moved to home-working and can be accessed by ringing your local helpline. I’m sorry you weren’t aware of this. You are now and can act accordingly.

    6 - if you have a UT1 there has been no reason to not proceed with that appeal. There is a fundamental misunderstanding here as to what you’re appealing. You can only appeal to UT on a point of law rather than on the facts. This matters because the UT1 does not ask for supporting evidence and none is required. 

    The document you are awaiting simply doesn’t come into play at this point. Once you have applied for leave to appeal using the UT1 HMCTS will supply the UT with the original appeal papers including the document about which you have concerns. Waiting to get your papers from the Citizens Advice was wholly unnecessary and you now need to get your UT1 in ASAP. All you need is to identify the error of law. HMCTS will supply the papers to UT if permission to leave is given. Delaying this for a document you didn’t need also harms your case. 

    7 - I am not as yet 100% clear from the above posts as to who wrote on the side of paper missing from your appeal papers. This really matters because if these notes were written by sometime like a medical professional then they are evidence. If on the other hand they were simply notes made by the appellant @Shaun_Hobbs then the tribunal would likely have been right to carry on as all that was needed was Shaun needed to

    - verbally explain that the appeal papers differed
    - verbally explain that the panel had a sheet he did not
    - verbally explain that the sheet in question had not been fully copied 
    - verbally explain what was on the missing side.

    Why does this matter? Because if the missing note was written by someone else then there’s no need to complete a UT1. An application to HMCTS for a set aside of the decision on the basis that a document was missing could be done and would have a small shot at succeeding. If the side was written by Shaun then there’s likely no set aside because he remained in the tribunal room to be asked about what was on there. A set aside is a much quicker process than an application to UT.

    Now, onto other matters:

    @laurapeach I know what you meant but paying for a solicitor is unlikely to get the poster better advice simply because few specialise in welfare rights. Further advice is what is needed but that relies on someone willing to give the advice and someone willing to listen and act upon it. If you don’t have the second then no one can deliver the first no matter how well qualified. 

    @SussexAndy unfortunately there is no human rights angle here. If you know the judge  and are unhappy with their presence you have the right to request a postponement. If you choose not to exercise that right then you’re stuck with the consequences. The fact the judge had sat on another tribunal involving Shaun would not have automatically excluded them. There is much case law on that issue. I have hopefully already explained why there’s no forgery etc. here. There was a bundle **** up and there’s the option of a long shot set aside and/or a UT1 depending on who wrote that side missing from Shaun’s bundle.

    @Topkitten I hear what you’re saying. From my perspective I simply don’t wish to be tagged in and my wall makes it clear I’m here in a personal capacity. Like everyone, the things I respond to are a personal choice. I immediately delete anything on my wall. 

    Pllease list any 'advice' he offered that had not previously been covered in any of the posts,clearly you are both wasting your valuable time here,move on.
    None of my post had been covered by other posters. 

    I agree with @poppy123456 that you need to use Advice Local to perhaps seek alternative advice but your absolute priority now must be to either get the UT1 in and/or get a set aside application in. You don’t need your missing document or anything else to do that and if you use that as reason to delay further then any late application you make may simply fail for lack of a good reason for the lateness. 
  • SussexAndySussexAndy Member Posts: 12 Courageous
    mikehughescq 

    Going by the comments being made here by Shaun about his personal case, and admitting we are all 3rd parties here to the tribunal and basing our responses on his information alone.   I partially agree with your comment if there was a mess up with Shauns bundle then there could be a potential negligence claim.  Although from what he has also indicated there could still remain the Rights to a Fair Trial issue. 

    Enthuses on COULD 

    in either case Shaun should be able to qualify for legal aid and he really needs to seek legal advice.   I think we can all agree on that and hope that he has gained some useful insight 

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 1
    With all due respect @SussexAndy there is no negligence complaint to be had because there is already a remedy via UT and set aside. Even if there were, characterising a **** up as negligence is frankly a non-starter. 

    I should also say that I’m very familiar with public law i.e I work with it and there is unlikely to be a HRA claim here at all. 

    Moreover it is unfair on the OP to raise false hopes of alternative avenues when his remedy is clear. Submit a UT1 without further delay and consider a set aside application alongside that. 

    The route you suggest has so few successful legal aid applications that at the start of 2019 I hosted a conference on public law remedies which heard that only 4 cases had got legal aid in the previous year! 

    I recognise your enthusiasm for legal remedies but that perhaps needs to be tempered with some understanding of how the legislation to which you refer actually works in practise and especially how it interacts with social security law. 
  • SussexAndySussexAndy Member Posts: 12 Courageous
    mikehughescq  I never claimed to be an expert in law and maybe you should have led with that.   My advise was based on the Could (not a definite) and to seek further information and legal advice. 

    I have to agree that the UT1 form is the best way forward for Shaun.  However he commented that he has trouble with these forms and needs help to complete them.  His local CAB has let him down.  

    So what would your advice be, if he cannot like most of us afford legal advice, have someone who can fill in these forms and to prepare for an Upper Tribunal of which you need to prove that your case has merit in the first place for the court to consider the application.

    Our legal system is not perfect, it is also driven by both Common Law and Parliamentary law.  The Human Rights elements do play a considerable rule in shaping our laws.  If Shaun is correct that his documents have been tampered with then there MAY be an issue, be it Human Rights or Civil procedures etc. 

    Shaun should be exploring all avenues and deciding what is the right avenue or avenues as he may need to call on more then one option depending on the facts of his case.  Furthermore there is no harm in at least trying to apply for legal aid which will save him a considerable amount of stress if he is successful.   

    I dont feel that I have given any bad advice - but I will say that the UT1 form is the only way forward.  What support he can get depends on what he applies for.   


  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    If I was in your position I would start at the front of the bread trail.  Go back to CAB and seek one of the following:

    Ask for your original evidence back or copies of it.
    Ask for copies of any other information that they have received from any other 3rd party. 
    Ask for a brief statement to why they are unable to provide this information to you.  I find the use of a Pre-Written tick box high beneficial in the past.  All they need to do is tick a statement which best describes the situation.   IE.   You can create a statement with a tick box stating Information sort has been lost / cannot be found.   and Source of information and who to contact leaving a little space. 


    If they are unable to provide you with the evidence, the source, and or no copies are available then there is no case against you.  Although the same can be said the other way around as your technically the injured party the burden of prove is on them and not you. 


    All you need to do is prove that you have done everything you can in your power to obtain the documents.  DWP for one has to legally hold all records in your case for several years possibly life as they are the DWP.   Similar to medical records


    I would also suggest that you look at the online assessment and be truthful to yourself when completing.  
    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-self-test 


    The list of equipment which they state you have used may well be accurate or may not be.  In your own admission you say you can use 4 out of 5 machines to some level of degree.   I wish that I could use a single one of them but I cant.   Pip is intended as an additional payment to help with daily difficulties although you might not meet the criteria you may meet the criteria of other benefits.     A benefits advisor may assist you.  but your get a lot of up-to-date information from that site above to help you


    All the best 

    Andy






    1:The CAB office has been shut since the 20th march 2020..my paperwork is inside their office.
    2 They do not answer calls or emails or visits to the office.
    3 To ask for a brief statement requires you actually see or communicate with a person..see above.

    The photo taken by me shows the equipment  in the order on the note,has been used for two years
    by the HUB team on their web site and is in their window now,i was told to use the equipment by my
    GP to build up my strength in my legs after my stroke as i kept falling over.



  • SussexAndySussexAndy Member Posts: 12 Courageous
    Hi Shaun 

    mikehughescq maybe the best person to direct your questions.  From a legal stand point he may well have a solution in order for you to get your information back from the CAB. 

    I would make sure that the courts are fully aware of your situation, keep records, copies of letters and to opt to send them by email as you will also have a digital signature. 

    Make sure in your correspondence that you highlight that these are unprecedented times due to Covid-19, that you do not have usual access which has slowed the processes and that you are without legal representation.  These are all important facts that needs to be recorded in your correspondence. 

    all the best and I hope you get things sorted out ASAP 


  • Shaun_HobbsShaun_Hobbs Member Posts: 21 Connected
    edited August 1
    mikehughescq 

    Going by the comments being made here by Shaun about his personal case, and admitting we are all 3rd parties here to the tribunal and basing our responses on his information alone.   I partially agree with your comment if there was a mess up with Shauns bundle then there could be a potential negligence claim.  Although from what he has also indicated there could still remain the Rights to a Fair Trial issue. 

    Enthuses on COULD 

    in either case Shaun should be able to qualify for legal aid and he really needs to seek legal advice.   I think we can all agree on that and hope that he has gained some useful insight 





    Hmm,i followed your tip about legal aid submitted my details to the gov.com site
    and found i qualified and it then gave me the number of a place,ill ring on tuesday
    morning when i visit DIAL in the town.

    If anyone else wants it here it is.

    Third Floor
    Kingsley House
    37-39 Balmoral Road Gillingham ME7 4PF

    Helpline: 01634 383 760

    Thanks Andy,this extends to others who offered sensible advice.


  • atlas47atlas47 Community champion Posts: 92 Pioneering
    Hi

    I think this thread is going beyond the bounds of our Scope community so I have flagged it up, for mods to consider.

    Please stay safe and kind.

    We are all going through a dreadful period of our lifetime.

    Best wishes
  • atlas47atlas47 Community champion Posts: 92 Pioneering

    Can you review this thread.
  • cupcake88cupcake88 Member Posts: 194 Pioneering
    @atlas47

    i was thinking the same keep seeing it come up on my emails and I really can’t understand most of it and I don’t really see where it’s going no offence to any one here I think I have just lost what’s this is all bout .

    we all have different illnesses and opinions and I think we should all understand I think any one has a right to speak there mind with helpful or factual information Or to lend a kind supportive ear .  I’m new to scope and I like the positivity and the fact we all help each other as well as fighting our own personal battles . but I think this thread has gone  to a point where it’s starting to get negative and I don’t even understand the thread and where it’s going . Please be kind Every one there’s so much crap going On in the world this should be a safe place to express our opinions please no one be horrible to Me for my opinion I just really have no clue to what this is about now or where it’s going . 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    @atlas47 and @cupcake88 I appreciate and understand the concern but there have been far far worse threads on here in recent weeks. Adrian has already reviewed the thread and issued a warning. I’m not seeing an issue since then. In the absence of an issue the only thing triggering emails is people commenting to ask for something that’s already happened. 

    It’s also worth saying that there’s nothing in here beyond the scope of this site. It’s a disability benefit case which went to first tier tribunal and lost. It now needs an application to UT and/or a set aside. That’s not frequent on here but it’s also not especially unusual. Whilst people have, with the best of intentions, attempted to broaden that out by mentioning negligence or the HRA neither appear relevant on the facts as posted. That’s pretty much where we are at present. 

    Anyway, back on topic. 

    1 - as I’ve already stated there is no need for any documentation from Citizens Advice. If you’re attempting to appeal to UT then you’re doing so on a point of law and there is no need for any supporting evidence. I’ve been doing applications for about 32 years and I’ve never had a single case which needed anything to go in with the UT1. The form doesn’t ask for it and the process doesn’t require it. The UT will get all the documents from HMCTS. Anyone who doubts this can check out the form itself at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/689163/ut1-eng.doc

    The 2 errors of law most likely to float here are breach of natural justice, or, the tribunal making a decision which was unsupported by the evidence i.e. perversity. You lay that out in the UT1; tell the story as has been posted here (albeit perhaps in shorter form and with more clarity and less emotive language) and your application is done. The more this is delayed waiting for something which is not needed the less the chances a late application will be allowed. 

    2 - as regards legal aid in the context of this thread I see it as nothing more than a gigantic red herring. 

    As the gov.uk pages say in very simple terms, there are two criteria not one.

    ”Whether you qualify for legal aid will depend on:
    • the type of case
    • your financial circumstances”

    A person may well qualify for legal aid financially but for certain types of cases there is no legal aid granted unless other criteria are met. Over 6 years to 2018 only 0.5% of discrimination cases got legal aid for court representation. Here’s the link to the EHRC report on that should anyone choose to believe that too. https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/access-to-legal-aid-for-discrimination-cases-our-legal-aid-inquiry.pdf#page5 The figure I’m quoting is at the bottom of page 8. 

    This is part of why I suggested @SussexAndy promotion of a Human Rights Act challenge was problematic putting aside the facts of this case as posted.SussexAndy said:
    mikehughescq maybe the best person to direct your questions.  From a legal stand point he may well have a solution in order for you to get your information back from the CAB. 

    I would make sure that the courts are fully aware of your situation, keep records, copies of letters and to opt to send them by email as you will also have a digital signature. 

    Make sure in your correspondence that you highlight that these are unprecedented times due to Covid-19, that you do not have usual access which has slowed the processes and that you are without legal representation.  These are all important facts that needs to be recorded in your correspondence. 
    Andy, the solution is to ring the national helpline not the local office but the whole point of my posts is that the documents @Shaun_Hobbs wants are not needed for his UT1 application. I agree with your middle paragraph in terms of sending stuff by email but I can’t agree with the last para. The delay here has not been because a CA office is shut. It’s because he’s wanting something he simply didn’t need to get his UT1 application going. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 1
    mikehughescq  I never claimed to be an expert in law and maybe you should have led with that.   My advise was based on the Could (not a definite) and to seek further information and legal advice. 

    I have to agree that the UT1 form is the best way forward for Shaun.  However he commented that he has trouble with these forms and needs help to complete them.  His local CAB has let him down.  

    So what would your advice be, if he cannot like most of us afford legal advice, have someone who can fill in these forms and to prepare for an Upper Tribunal of which you need to prove that your case has merit in the first place for the court to consider the application.

    Our legal system is not perfect, it is also driven by both Common Law and Parliamentary law.  The Human Rights elements do play a considerable rule in shaping our laws.  If Shaun is correct that his documents have been tampered with then there MAY be an issue, be it Human Rights or Civil procedures etc. 

    Shaun should be exploring all avenues and deciding what is the right avenue or avenues as he may need to call on more then one option depending on the facts of his case.  Furthermore there is no harm in at least trying to apply for legal aid which will save him a considerable amount of stress if he is successful.   

    I dont feel that I have given any bad advice - but I will say that the UT1 form is the only way forward.  What support he can get depends on what he applies for.   
    Sorry Andy, only just read this. To reiterate:

    1 - there is no human rights element here. None at all.
    2 - Citizens Advice national helpline can talk him through UT1 completion. 
    3 - the document was not “tampered with”. Someone put it into the appeal bundle for the panel. It should have been in Shaun’s appeal bundle but it wasn’t. When he realised the panel had it but he didn’t he also realised that they only had 1 side not 2. That will be a good old fashioned photocopying error by HMCTS. Happens fairly regularly. It’s unfortunate but it’s not negligent or a breach of the right to a fair trial or a discrimination issue. 

    Shaun had the option to ask for his tribunal to be adjourned in order that all parties had the same bundle but that didn’t happen. As with the judge issue, he elected to proceed. It also sounds like once the panel understood from Shaun what was on the other side they likely decided they didn’t need to see it. 

    It’s also worth bearing in mind here that an appeal for someone with MD who has also had strokes can be complex; hard to follow and easy to misunderstand. Whilst Shaun believes that this one side of paper triggered his negative decision that may not be the case at all. @laurapeach attempted to broach the issue of actual entitlement but that seems to have died a death. 
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering

    The tribunals aren't paid by the DWP by the way, they're part of Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service which are entirely independent of the DWP and PIP.


    The dwp do indeed pay for the tribunals......2 organisations that both work for the governament cannot be independant......
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    Topkitten said:
    When I first tried getting DLA I had some issues because I filled the form in myself and did it incorrectly. I was refused but appealed. When I attended I had a better idea of what I should have put but was advised not to change it, I lost the appeal. I tried again about a year later with the help of someone from MIND but again was refused. I appealed again and it turned out the woman hadn't written what I had said and it got refused again by exactly the same judge and accompanying professionals, which isn't supposed to happen. Another year went by before I tried again and this time I had the help from someone at the CAB and she did a better job but still I only got low rate mobility and I appealed again and lo and behold I got the same judge for a third time. This judge refuse d me and took away what I did have for the reason that "It isn't my job to give you a free car". I consulted with the lady from the CAB and we asked for a "Statement of Reasons". It was supposed to be sent within 6 weeks but took 3 months to actually get sent out. The lady from the CAB said there was nothing we could do. So I pointed out 5 outright lies in the statement and commented on another half dozen dubious points so she said she would get back to me. The next day she rang and had spoken with a Barrister friend who agreed with me. Consequently we applied to the High Court of Appeal and soon after that the judges decision was thrown out by the Clerk to the High Court (not the Court itself) as being non-factual and I was given a new appeal. This time I finally got a different judge and a successful appeal of High rate Mobility and Medium Rate Care backdated to the date of the third attempt (18 months). This also meant I could get ESA but they refused to backdate that at all, said it didn't apply or meet the demands of reasons to backdate.

    Since then I have had to reapply for DLA once and switch to PIP. On both attempts I had a person from DWP visit me at home and fill the forms in for me. Both were successful because the people didn't just take my word for simple things but made me consider everything I automatically did without thinking, which also made things more difficult than even I considered.

    I only applied at all the first time because when I asked my doctor if I was disabled he said "Yes, and you have been for about a year". The total time from start to finish was about 4 and a half years.

    If I hadn't been able to understand and contest the Statement of Reasons or if the lady at the CAB hadn't had that friend I probably still wouldn't have got help.

    The system is detestable and even worse now than it was then.

    TK

    Sounds like You had the same problems I am having :(
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger

    The tribunals aren't paid by the DWP by the way, they're part of Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service which are entirely independent of the DWP and PIP.


    The dwp do indeed pay for the tribunals......2 organisations that both work for the governament cannot be independant......
    Please stop repeating this inaccuracy. HMCTS is funded by the Ministry of Justice. DWP have no involvement and haven’t for years. 
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    Once again I note I’ve been tagged in and find myself reading the thread with increasing concern. Could I politely ask people to not tag me in? I’ll read what I can when I can and contributed if I’ve the time or think there’s a need. Sometimes I may have time and think there’s a need but simply not bother because there are other things I’d rather be doing. 

    The last thread I was tagged in on was started by @KingKongsFinger and I note that some of the misapprehensions expressed there have been repeated here along with some new ones so let’s tackle those head on before addressing the original post.

    1 - calling a judge and medical professional “arses” suggests you’re entering the tribunal room with an idea of what their role is that is removed from the reality. As observed in the other thread people generally (not always but generally) get the appeal hearing they deserve in terms of how much they attempted to understand the PIP regs and the role of a tribunal. 

    Being offensive is a great way to make enemies of the very people you want on your side. Calling them names for the possibly entirely reasonable conclusion they drew based on what you have posted here is akin to shopping yourself in the foot. 

    2 - KingKongsFinger said:
    Unfortunately these laws/criteria are deliberately vague and open to interpretation, which is wrong imo. And as for the tribunal being "independant" hahahahaha, how can any tribunal be independant if it works for the government and is funded by the dwp, complete farce and if You aren't dying or nearly dead You're screwed. Need to get a campaign together but no-one around here seems interested in doing anything or challenging anything.
    Both the above statements are wrong and misleading for other posters. The PIP regs, guidance and caselaw paint a pretty clear picture on most descriptors and certainly the ref you reference doesn’t say what you say it does. Your zero points comes from 

     2. Moving around.
    a. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.  0 points.”

    There’s no repeatedly requirement in that wording. If you can go that far once then zero  points is correct. If you get up and walk round the block once and the dust above us anywhere near 200m (and most “blocks” would be far more) then you have “stood” and “moved”. There’s nothing either vague or open to interpretation there at all. 

    As has also been pointed out here and in the other thread HMCTS have nothing to do with government and are no longer funded by DWP at the very top end. Expressing an opinion as fact is a breach of the terms of this site. Having it brought to your attention by several posters and then repeating it... hmm.

    As regards the original post on this thread then I’m afraid this looks like another case of authoring your own misfortune and desperately needing advice and representation. My expectation is that anyone with macular degeneration and presumably with explicit and  ongoing consequences of a stroke would comfortably qualify for both components for PIP for at least 3 to 5 years but, depending on how far advanced the MD is, could potentially qualify on that alone. The fact you’re able to post here and also lost the appeal suggests to me not so much an injustice as at least a question mark as to the severity of your conditions at present. Something that would need to be discussed further with an adviser at minimum. 

    I don’t know on what basis you “know” the judge or indeed know that they dislike you but you will always have the chance to object to their presence if you’re known to each other outside the tribunal room and to object if you think they know more of your circumstances than the other two tribunal members. Going ahead or not knowing who the judge was was in your control so if you chose to go ahead then it’s Simply too late to raise that issue now. The moment to do that was on the day. The moment has gone and even if you were able to get the matter to UT I have my doubts as to whether they would be especially sympathetic to your failure to object to the judge on the day.

    As regards documents you’d not seen before I’m afraid I’m not convinced we’re getting the full picture here. If you’d not seen it before you could have asked for an adjournment to consider your response. If you’d not seen it before how could you know it had been “altered”? Tribunals do not spring new evidence on appellants on the day without offering the chance to adjourn. I’m afraid this part of the tale lacks sufficient detail or credibility to comment on further. 

    As you appear to have sprung documents on the tribunal on the day I again think some perspective is required.

    As regards a late appeal to the UT there are 2 issues:

    1 - you may wish to query with your local CA why the deadline was missed and why a late application was not made? That’s between you and them.

    2 - you did not need anything back from CA in order to pursue the matter yourself. The UT1 form is available online and you could get a further copy of both your appeal paints and the statement of reasons by contacting HMCTS. C-19 really doesn’t come into play. This may well still be rectifiable but you will need to move quickly. 

    Mike, please look at these desciptors, activity 1 part d......https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/ESA_criteria I'm not talking about PIP, I have a successful PIP award......

    And if the judge and gp are arses that's what I'm going to call them.....obviously I did not say that to their faces but I kinda wish I had......

    Your attitude is very unhelpful and People have come here with genuine concerns and You're just shooting them down......


  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    From gov.uk website: https://www.gov.uk/appeal-benefit-decision very clearly says "appeal a BENEFIT DECISION" not "be put on trial and reassessed and have all previous evidence ignored"


    Oddly enough i wrote out a list of my objections and mistakes in both of the assesments and gave each member of the bench a copy,she glaced at it the threw aside and said  ''I dont need this,i have everything i need in the assesors report''.

    That's awful, so they take what the assessor says without question and We have no way of disputing it, yeah really fair that is......
  • KingKongsFingerKingKongsFinger Member Posts: 62 Pioneering
    cupcake88 said:
    Hey and welcome how did they know you went to the gym ? Did the gym just tell them ? 

    It’s a joke that exercising goes against you 

    Yeah this sucks, I'll be bringing that up too.......
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
    Please try to respond without quoting long posts in full. Thank you. 

    You are on the wrong thread here. This thread is about Shaun’s issue. 
  • laurapeachlaurapeach Member Posts: 44 Courageous
    mikehughescq 

    Going by the comments being made here by Shaun about his personal case, and admitting we are all 3rd parties here to the tribunal and basing our responses on his information alone.   I partially agree with your comment if there was a mess up with Shauns bundle then there could be a potential negligence claim.  Although from what he has also indicated there could still remain the Rights to a Fair Trial issue. 

    Enthuses on COULD 

    in either case Shaun should be able to qualify for legal aid and he really needs to seek legal advice.   I think we can all agree on that and hope that he has gained some useful insight 





    Hmm,i followed your tip about legal aid submitted my details to the gov.com site
    and found i qualified and it then gave me the number of a place,ill ring on tuesday
    morning when i visit DIAL in the town.

    If anyone else wants it here it is.

    Third Floor
    Kingsley House
    37-39 Balmoral Road Gillingham ME7 4PF

    Helpline: 01634 383 760

    Thanks Andy,this extends to others who offered sensible advice.


    All of this is pointless though if you don't fit the descriptors for getting PIP. If you can walk more than 200 metres at any time you won't be entitled to the moving around part of the mobility section, even if it was advised by a doctor to do it. The fact you can do it would mean you wouldn't get it. Do you need help getting to places you know or don't know? That could be in the form of an assistance dog or another person. Do you get distressed by having to leave your home? If you're okay leaving your home and getting to places on your own then you also wouldn't be entitled to the planning a journey portion of the mobility component.

    For the daily living part, can you cook unaided, or shower unaided? If you can't, what aids do you use?

    Like I said before the dwp don't look at your diagnosis, they look at how the condition actually affects you. I've got chronic fatigue syndrome myself, but everyone with it is affected differently which is why they don't give you PIP purely based on diagnosis. I'm on the moderate/severe scale of the condition but there are others who can lead normal lives, and others who have to stay in a dark room in their bed 24/7. It wouldn't be fair to give the person leading a normal life the PIP as they would not need the extra money to get through their day. Whereas someone like myself, who has to pay extra to get someone to clean my home, look after my daughter and get food delivered would need the extra money to help me day to day. 
    Mum of one, I have M.E/CFS and POTS.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,644 Disability Gamechanger
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