Has DLA Turned Disabled People Greedy? - Page 2 — Scope | Disability forum
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Has DLA Turned Disabled People Greedy?

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  • Geoark
    Geoark Community member Posts: 1,463 Disability Gamechanger
    @Rosiesmum I don't think the problem is lack of consistency, rather the record tends to show there is a lot of consitency in the errors being produced. I believe there is a very good reason why they use health professionals rather than doctors registered to work in this country, and that is because had they produced reports like we have seen they would have struck off.

    The DWP are certainly aware of the issue, but rather than deal with it they introduced mandatory reconsiderations to generally rubberstamp the decision with a clear aim of increasing the number of people who drop their claim before the appeal is heard. They have been very successful with this aim.

    I doubt that we will ever have a system that gets it right all the time, and I seriously doubt that we will ever get a fair system while the Conservatives are in government. Even their much vaunted social mobility commission stepped down en mass because they had no faith that this government was capable of providing a fair society, this included a seniour conservative MP.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • Topkitten
    Topkitten Community member Posts: 1,285 Pioneering
    There was a comment back in this somewhere that basically implied that it is not our place to judge others. One thing I have learnt very well is that people judge others ALL the time. We take what we see and assess people accordingly.

    Using a car park, especially in town. shows people using disability spaces unnecessarily a lot. It also shows some to be taking advantage. I have expressed this opinion before so wont belabour the point but there will ALWAYS be people who take advantage of any system unfairly and, with such a preponderance of invisible illnesses now, it has become easier for them. Fibro, for example, is something people can learn to simulate but what they cannot do is learn the way it affects movement even on the good days.

    I spoke to a lady recently who claimed to have it but it was obvious that, even if she did suffer the condition, it was at such a low level that it never impeded her abilities. It was more a claim to be more like me during our conversation which, due to understanding and knowledge, failed miserably. Yes, I am sure the lady has some problems but she has never really suffered in the way she claimed.

    Invisible disabilities are not as invisible as most think. Those that suffer them can spot the difference with a little patience because even on the good days there is an expectation of it returning and a protection of the movements that aid in dealing with it.

    Even here, though more so in the outside world, I see people claiming how their pain is at such extreme levels yet, when pressed for details, show to those that really do suffer extreme levels that their idea of what constitutes extreme falls far short of a really extreme situation. However, pain is subjective and it can feel impossible to deal with only for it to rise and then the only wish is for it to go back to the previous state as that was not so bad after all.

    So, why the monologue?

    Need and greed cannot be judged purely in monetary terms. What is important to rate it against is the quality of life at those different levels. Then there are short term mitigating circumstances which, as a general rule, are punished by the system out of proportion to their benefit. I won't attempt here to quote or speak for others, I will simply use myself as an example.

    Outwardly I appear, as I have said before, fairly healthy. I also appear to be fairly well off and can afford things I would not normally be in a position to do so. Does this mean I do not deserve help from the system? Every time I pull into a disabled space and exit the car I see the looks I get. I can see them wondering why I deserve the benefit of a car and a badge. This lasts only until I open the back door and commence winching the scooter out, setting it up, getting on It awkwardly and then finally going into the shop. Hang on! I heard that very clearly even in text, lol! What about my claims of panic attacks, agoraphobia and claims of fear of strangers and strange places? When I use the scooter I feel somehow protected. I spend my time concentrating on manoeuvring it and avoiding running into people and hurting them. In short, I don't have time to become scared. I remain terrified of entering more than the 3 or 4 places without it (excluding my home and those of my relatives), which I have spent a long time training myself to be controlled when I enter. Places I need to go to just live.

    Do I need high rate benefits? Do I have a car unfairly when I can afford to go places like having a few days away and stay in a hotel or to ask an escort to visit me (not cheap) or in numerous other ways that I show I have reasonable funds? The money I have right now is what is left of the estate my mother left me. I use it to try and have ALL the things I have not had over the last decade because I could not afford them. It will not last that long but for now things are better. Perhaps some might think I should therefore not have the help at the moment. My answer to that is why not? It is not my own management of money that has led to this, it was the loss of my mother at a bad time that now lets me make up for it to myself and, in amongst all the advantages, I have also been replacing and gaining some additional aids in allowing me to function better. Ofc no one knows about those because I see little reason to tell them and, even if I did, most would not understand why I need such things anyway.

    We judge people all the time. It is human nature. We can deny it or rationalise it but it is always there. Rather than discuss whether someone is being greedy by wishing for an extra few thousand pounds we should discuss whether the loss of that would mean them unable to ever leave their home or would it mean they can never be clean. Without the car I could never leave the house. For now I could cope with the loss in other ways but, once the money I have is gone, then I would be housebound for whatever time I have left. Could I get it back? It seems doubtful under the present system without going through a process I doubt I could cope with and even then the hardship whilst waiting would probably be beyond my limits.

    Always be careful when throwing labels around. It is impossible to know someone enough, especially disabled people, to be certain about them. Just look for the signs that those who are really undeserving constantly give out and then turn your opinion on them. Most really disabled people deserve the help they get and the rates money is paid at is really only sufficient for the more minor levels of disability. The costs of having severe disability are never appropriately covered.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering
    This is nothing new:

    I used to know someone whose daughter (she was a child; so unlike an adult, was not expected to do self care under DLA at her age) was awarded lower care because she had eczema. Yes, having had the condition myself, I am aware that it's not pleasant. She wasn't too happy that she only got lower care and thought she really should have got mid care. She did fight for this, as well as higher mobility - even though there are videos of her daughter dancing.

    When the mobility rules changed and you could claim higher mobility on the basis that you (a few people anyway) were blind, everyone claiming on the basis of sight impairment was contacted. I remember saying it doesn't apply to me and my consultant was contacted, he confirmed this and told me they'd talked to him. The same lady mentioned above, has the same amount of vision as I do and was trying to appeal to get the higher rate - even though she quite clearly doesn't meet it.
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    And doctors would cost a lot more than 'Health Care Professionals'.
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    Nobody wants to be disabled. Nobody wants to have debilitating conditions. But for many of us it does form a great part of our lives, we learn to cope as best we can and often hide a lot.
    PIP is flawed in only looking at functionality and not the cause. We all learn to function, we have to, we have no choice. When we attend assessments we still have to function so the assessor will see us function and report accordingly. If we didn't have our coping mechanisms in place a trained monkey would be able to see the problems we have.
    In many ways it is easier to quote our condtions and medical history rather than admit to the things that we have  trouble with. We cannot change what has been diagnosed so we lead with the medical facts. We can, in some cases overcome and find ways around our functionality. It is much harder to admit that we cannot do things than accept a medical condition. For example, I can accept as a fact that I have chronic COPD, I have to use oxygen that is a fact. Is it a fact that I cannot walk 20m ? I used to be a middle distance runner and I still am in my head, so no I cannot accept that most of the time I cannot walk to the end of my driveway.
    I used to be a mechanic and car sprayer, it was my passion. Can I accept that I will never do it again. No, I cannot accept that. There are many practical and physical things I  used to do and trying to do them has put me in hospital three times this year. I still don't accept that I can't do them, so will probably end up in hospital again.
    Until PIP is change to take into account the cause as well as the functional impact we have to learn to drop our coping strategy when being assessed or the assessor will come to the wrong conclusion in many cases. We all do judge on what we see and assessors are no different, if they don't see how your condition affects you how can they reach a fair and just assessment ?

    I am not defending the the system or the dishonest assessors, but in part we are to blame for learning how to get on with the life we have been dealt, we have no option

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • Neil2017
    Neil2017 Community member Posts: 155 Courageous
    Hi @DannyMoore
    Apologies if this is going off tge original post.
    i would just like to say thank you for sharing the information on the Living with Asperger’s on the ASD. I watched it and found the vide very informative and useful.  
    Can relate to some of tge stuff. And like tge bit about nicknaming your strengths as super human powers!
    all the best
    Neil
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 215 Listener
    I know a married couple who have been married for 20 years DWP believed their lie that they live together but don't have a sexual relationship in their home because of his mental health problems ( no mental health problems) just convinced his doctor he hears voices . They claimed income support each then went to esa....so 5 years ago he decided to claim dla was awarded high care low mobility, he has just gone from dla to PIP recieved his award letter got enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility...the next day he ordered his brand new 17 plate car with a 1000 pound deposit ..he got that then put his 3 year old lovely car up for sale...he was diagnosed with mild  copd for smoking 50 roll ups a day and was given 2 inhalers he can run faster than me never mind walk and I'm 2o years younger.But that wasn't enough his wife made a claim for pip she has just been awarded the enhanced daily living and  low mobility.. again nothing wrong with wife playing on artheritis ,their daughter who is currently on dla waiting to go for pip recieved high care low mobility her and her partner go abroad twice a year and she has just passed her driving test obviosly expecting a brand new car when goes to pip....all 3 of them lay on the couch everyday all day long that's when he isn't taking all family shopping ECT in his top of range car...Now if that isn't GREED il never know .
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    No, that is not greed it is criminal
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 215 Listener
    @CockneyRebel Of course it is CRIMINAL, GREED & WANTING and theres plenty of them it makes me sick.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 215 Listener
    Budgie2 said:
    @CockneyRebel Of course it is CRIMINAL, GREED & WANTING and theres plenty of them it makes me sick.
    And they didn't provide any medical evidence of his mild copd or the made up mental health but was still awarded it .
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    How many of us have seen or know of this kind of abuse and criminality and done nothing about it ? How many of the scammers shown on television have been brought to task ?
    Or is this another form of greed ? Do we look at them and think they don't deserve benefits and if they were stopped there would be more for me.
    People tell lies. Some people lie to get benefits. Some people tell lies about their benefits. Some people lie to themselves about their disabilities.
    Do your friends and family really know all about your disability or do you hide it ?
    How can you make a judgement call without knowing all the facts ?
    If you do know for certain what are you prepared to do about it ?
    How many people would report another person for claiming benefit that they suspected didn't deserve it ?

    CR
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 215 Listener
    I don't speak to these people I'm a friend of their friend so I get told what they are up to ...im sure nothing would get done because they know how to play...their GP is convinced so what is the point of saying anything .
  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering

    Do your friends and family really know all about your disability or do you hide it ?

    CR
    Exactly. I've hid some of the problems I have. Or rather, only said something when it's become relevant. I don't feel the need to announce to every single person that I've got issues with whatever. 
  • Neil2017
    Neil2017 Community member Posts: 155 Courageous
    Hi all,
    Think this discussion or thread will run and run. Unfortunately there is always somebody who seems to abuse or get more than their ‘fair’ share. Conversely there is always someone who falls through the cracks and does not get anything for whatever reason.
  • Topkitten
    Topkitten Community member Posts: 1,285 Pioneering
    There are and will always be people who cheat the system. DLA was very good at finding them out and the rate of cheating was assessed at around 1%. PIP is such a mess in itself that the rate is vastly higher and will only be sorted out once they admit how bad it is and effectively sort the problems out. In the meantime it costs nothing to report people who are obviously cheating. I am not certain but suspect that there is an anonymous line for reporting such things. I know there is for Council based benefits and this anonymity is sometimes abused but we do not live in a perfect world. Whilst we turn a blind eye so the situation will continue.

    It is ofc a personal matter between the person and their conscience.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering
    There is indeed an anonymous line for reporting people you suspect of cheating the system. You don't even need to give that much information. I was reported because a) I don't live where I claim to live (I honestly forgot to change my details on the electoral roll when I moved out) and b) I'm not as disabled as I claim to be. Whatever the heck that means. Oh yes, it's probably because I walk... (I have never claimed I'm unable to walk)
  • feir
    feir Community member Posts: 397 Pioneering
    2 people i know who claim the top rate did each spend thousands on a new fitted kitchen, not even to make their life easier or anything but just because they wanted a new kitchen, there was nothing wrong with their 'old' ones either .i guess when you're doing that and not spending it on actual needs you have then it does make them look like they are on too much money and wasting it.

    then i know someone who needed a different kitchen fitting so she could retain more independence while disabled and had to fight to get one as she hadn't the money to pay for it herself, she wasn't on top rate.

    so, on the other hand, many people are living hand to mouth or struggling because of poverty not allowing them to have a fulfilling life that i really don't blame people for claiming money they don't really need coz without the extra money it's likely you'd be in poverty and unable to meet even your basic needs.

    flat rates don't really work in an inequitable society or when individuals have differing needs and expenses. but then again society pretty much goes against that kind of thinking too, your manager will get paid more than you for working the same hours. so yeah i guess this will continue, nobody has any idea what they're doing really they justify this and that but i'm of the thought that if you have to justify something then it's probably the wrong thing to do for that reason alone. don't get why we don't do things that make sense instead.
  • Topkitten
    Topkitten Community member Posts: 1,285 Pioneering
    I think there is a misconception amongst healthy people that the disabled are well off and get tons of money and help. If they then develop a slight or mild disability they expect to be treated according to what they believe. They also don't understand the difference between the various levels of disabilities but then that applies to some disabled people too. It is difficult to appreciate the difference between a disability that makes it difficult and painful to walk and another that makes it completely impossible in that they both take away a simple function that people expect to have, that of walking.

    People will always have expectations that are usually unrealistic whether that be appropriate physical support, appropriate monetary support or a cure. What is most galling though is when you see people getting help and money for lesser disabilities than you yourself suffer. It may be that they do deserve it but they may not and that is when they should be reported because there is little enough to go round for the people that really need it.

    TK
    "I'm on the wrong side of heaven and the righteous side of hell" - from Wrong side of heaven by Five Finger Death Punch.
  • Geoark
    Geoark Community member Posts: 1,463 Disability Gamechanger
    PIP like DLA is not means tested, you can be on JSA and qualify for PIP or be a director of a successful company and qualify for PIP. Comparing how the two spend their income would be like comparing apples and pears.

    So if this is not acceptable then we are saying that it should be means tested, which generally means household income rather than individual. So where do we set the limit before pulling the rug from under their feet? Or in other words at what level are we happy for disabled people to reach before we say enough? Keeping in mind that these limits are usually based on household income, if the partner is successful does the individual disabled person then lose their rights as an individual?

    The other question which seems to being asked is what rights do we have on deciding how we spend the money we have if we are in receipt of any benefits? We all make choices on what is important to us as individuals or as a family, what might be important to one will not necessarily be important to another.

    We do seem to be doing the governments job for them. Remove the no means test to include means testing.

    Scrutinise spending to see if based on want or need and remove if based on want.

    So then we come to an important question, if you are disabled and work what is the maximum quality of life and social mobility you are entitled to if you depend in any way on benefits?

    There is a huge amount of inequality, to some extent the corrupt system in place plays it role. People have posted here that they get zero points and say they are disgusted and want nothing more to do with it. Others will just accept it. Many will go to MR and the original decision will be rubber stamped and they will drop out.

    We know that appeal success rates are high, around 65%. But this is for both written and oral hearings. Just as we know oral hearings are far more successful then written, so those who are unable to attend again are far more likely to fail. A simple truth is those least able are more likely to fail.

    If we were to remove PIP from those we deem as not being 'worthy' of this benefit would this provide more money for those that need it? No. It would reduce what the government pays in benefits and add to their rhetoric on how they are improving the lives of disabled people. Must be true look at how much we are not spending now. Or as Iain Duncon Smith once put it 'I believe it to be true and you cannot prove me wrong'.

    Not counting those who are defrauding the system, the problem is not disabled people, it is the system used to check the entitlement and the corruption this government is allowing at the expense of disabled people.

    As an individual I stood alone.
    As a member of a group I did things.
    As part of a community I helped to create change!

  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering
    edited January 2018
    I'm not sure I get the issue with people spending PIP / DLA on whatever. After all, we don't whinge at people spending ESA / JSA on whatever, do we?

    And how do you decide whether it's disability related or not? I, for example, can't drive for medical reasons (although, it was decided at my PIP assessment I could - my parents were told when I was 5 it would never happen. It was then confirmed again when I was 18) and if I go more than 1 hour away from home for a gig or whatever, as well as paying for a train, I've got to pay for a hotel for the night. If I wasn't disabled, I'd be driving and be able to drive home late at night. There's no way I'm getting a train (assuming they're even running) late at night.

    Thankfully, you're not asked what you spend your PIP on. I, for example, don't really have any set costs as such. I'll have some weeks where my mobility costs can be as little as £3 and other weeks it's nearer £50. Ditto care - sometimes, it might be nothing and other weeks, it might be nearer £100.
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