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PIP - zero points - how many of us?

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,741 Listener
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  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    With DLA the DWP would routinely ask the GP for a report.  Now with PIP the DWP never contact GPs.  And with DLA the DWP would send their own appointed doctor to contact an examination.  Whereas now there is no medical examination by a doctor but an assessment by an 'HCP' the highest qualified of whom are nurses and often are only paramedics.

    In other words, under DLA there was thorough medical evidence whereas now with PIP there are flawed reports by assessors many of whom are incompetent at best and dishonest at worst.
  • Waylay
    Waylay Community member, Scope Member Posts: 973 Pioneering
    Hi @Victoriad! Yeah, GPs are so wildly different in how much they know about MH, and in how they treat patients. I'm very lucky to have a GP who specialises in MH, and who is extremely helpful. He readily admits that he's a bit out of his depth with my diagnosis of Borderline PD, but read up on it and is happy to call the specialist service if he has questions. (He agrees with my therapist that it's more likely that I have C-PTSD, though.)

    He treats me as an adult who has had mental health problems since I was a teenager, and consults me on what I think about various treatments, etc. I adore him.

    He also knows a fair amount about chronic pain.
  • Salamka101
    Salamka101 Community member Posts: 40 Courageous
    @Matilda . Just to clarify PiP had two objectives. One was to reduce the number of long-term DLA awards, the other was give 'Parity of esteem' between physical  and mental disability. Sounded reasonable but in practice it meant savagely reduce those with physical disabilities to the same level as those with mental issues.
    It's worth noting that just last week Esther McVay was accused of misleading Parliament in her recent statement on PiP by a Tory Peer That Peer was Lord Sterling, co-founder of Motability in 1977. Also worth remembering that McVey was sacked from her role as Minister for the disabled in 2013 for a similar failure.
    Lord Sterling pointed out that 75000 disabled drivers out of 180,000 have had to return their vehicles so far, 5,000 in the last year alone, and the switchpver still has 2 years to run.
    When looking at the way PiP is NOT working one has to remember that in any organisation the tone is always set by the person at the head. If that person exhibits an unfortunate antipathy to the disabled and is inclined to be less than truthful, that will permeate down through the entire organisation. 

    Salamka101
  • Waylay
    Waylay Community member, Scope Member Posts: 973 Pioneering
    @Salamka101 One person, or an entire government.....
  • Waylay
    Waylay Community member, Scope Member Posts: 973 Pioneering
    Yeah,@lillybelle , I was on DLA for several years, until got switched to PIP. Sigh.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,741 Listener
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  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering
    I did send off evidence for DLA just in case and I did the same with PIP. GP was contacted with DLA snd wasn't with PIP. It also seemed that my GP and the evidence was believed more with DLA too.

    I didn't really see my GP when I was DLA and see them quite a bit more now for check ups. 
  • charlene
    charlene Community member Posts: 555 Pioneering
    Well done Victoriad, having a good GP is high on my list of priorities.  Unless my memory serves me wrong I found many things between PIP and DLA the same. Obviously the 20m  and 200m are vastly difference. With PIP I found you have to describe how your illness impacts on your life, you have to dot the I and cross the t.  Practically the first thing my assessor  said to me was thank you for filling my form in so fully.  Still waiting for my results, so it will be interesting to see if it helped me!  Mind you she did ask me if I had help.
    When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
  • wilko
    wilko Community member Posts: 2,458 Disability Gamechanger
    I am impressed and happy that people who,where on DLA and now claiming PIP have admitted that claiming DLA was easier to claim and no proper checks where made. We all know PIP has a lot of hoops to jump through to get an award and it is only right. That's why the questions asked are relevant to your daily needs and having an acessment to justify your needs makes the system fairer as long as the claimant and acessor are both honest in their reporting a fair award should and in most case happens. It's sad when people on DLA have to hand their cars back because they don't meet the criteria in the PIP system it proves that so many where claiming and getting a free car for years and now have to prove their need.
  • jabeentahira
    jabeentahira Community member Posts: 2 Listener
     Im 46 currently allowed to bid in Band 2 (Emergency medical needs ) due to severe disability and depression (noise level from flat above) for an adapted property ground floor only . But not allowed to bid for bungalow or any property above 50. As a result there is no place where I can bid every week. 
    Bungalow is an ideal option for me due to disability and reduce noise level but sadly Im not allowed to bid for it
    Can any one advise me what are my rights as a disable ? what Law says about it ?
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @CockneyRebel with respect to you as I know how much help you give to others on this forum but there's no point in saying we never hear about the claims that go smoothly and correctly as your's did. @Waylay started this discussion because of knowing that there are reports of people getting 0 points through the lack of knowledge or sheer dishonesty of the assessment services. It's not just the odd one it's hundreds if not thousands of cases that aren't being handled properly. To say PIP is better than DLA is based only on the system working properly and there is a huge amount of evidence that it is not. An FOI request would not give figures for 0 scores that should have been awards which is the subject to hand. Should we just ignore all the corruption because the correctly awarded claimants stay silent? No of course we shouldn't.   
  • zacthezebra
    zacthezebra Community member Posts: 36 Courageous
    I was successful on my third attempt to claim DLA and was awarded mid rate care high rate mobility indefinite award.
    I applied for PIP 2016 and was awarded 16 points mobility and 20 points care awarded for 5 years. Since the rules on mental health for mobility awards have changed I should get 24 points mobility.

    Unfortunately we all know PIP is a lottery I was lucky I had an honest HCP but he did get some things wrong but overall the assessment was fairly accurate it lasted nearly fours hours. I had also applied for ESA and the DWP used my PIP assessment for my ESA I was placed in the support group.

    My first attempt to claim DLA I did not even have an assessment I was turned down straight away. My second attempt at claiming I had an assessment with a doctor with such poor English I could not understand most of what he said.He lied to such an extent I thought the report was on someone else.
    The third attempt I had an ex GP he was really understanding and the report was very accurate hence my success.
  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering
    wilko said:
    I am impressed and happy that people who,where on DLA and now claiming PIP have admitted that claiming DLA was easier to claim and no proper checks where made. We all know PIP has a lot of hoops to jump through to get an award and it is only right. That's why the questions asked are relevant to your daily needs and having an acessment to justify your needs makes the system fairer as long as the claimant and acessor are both honest in their reporting a fair award should and in most case happens. It's sad when people on DLA have to hand their cars back because they don't meet the criteria in the PIP system it proves that so many where claiming and getting a free car for years and now have to prove their need.
    But proper checks were made. Why do you think peoples GPs were written to?

    The assessments under PIP make no sense - I have a condition which is well known for fluctuating. How can you make a decision on how it really affects me based on a hour's assessment? You can't.

    I found many of the questions weren't relevant to my daily needs. I wasn't asked at all about socializing for example; but for whatever reason, it was assumed I could. Ditto, cooking a meal - even though it was written on my form I can't even make a cup of tea unaided.

    I was honest at my assessment. The assessor wasn't. And that's where the problem lies. As well as the lack of knowledge - I was asked a) if I could drive and do I have a piece of paper to prove it. Because I didn't, it was assumed I could, and b) I was asked what one of my conditions was. How can you make a decision how I'm affected if you don't know what my condition is?
  • wilko
    wilko Community member Posts: 2,458 Disability Gamechanger
    Obviously the acessor was not doing their acessment to the high standard as required. When filling in the form there is plenty of space to write addional information about your problems with daily living even adding extra sheets if needed. As for the acessment it's a two way thing you ,we have to be proactive in giving our answers and not a simple yes or no answers being asked by the acessor. If you feel the acessor does not understand your condition and situation then enlighten them, Inform them. Don't sit there silently.
  • Nystagmite
    Nystagmite Community member Posts: 596 Pioneering
    She had to ask what one of my conditions was! So if you have to ask, how can you make a decision on how it affects me? It was also pretty much decided I was lying about the side effects of the medication I'm on. These are documented by my GP and were documented by a previous GP too.

    I only gave a simple no when I had no difficulties doing things.
  • Waylay
    Waylay Community member, Scope Member Posts: 973 Pioneering
    PIP assessors do sometimes contact your consultants/GP/etc., but not regularly.

    From a recent disabilitynewsservice article:

    DWP documents drawn up in May 2012...show the department expected its contractors would need to request further evidence (also known as further medical evidence) in about half of all cases (50 per cent).

    But at one stage, in June and July 2016, Capita was seeking further information from GPs, consultants or social workers in fewer than one in every 50 PIP claims (less than two per cent of cases).

    ...the total number of separate requests for further evidence by Capita had plunged from more than 94,000 in 2015, to about 48,000 in 2016, and then to less than 21,000 in the whole of 2017.

    The figures also show a dramatic, unexplained slump in the proportion of cases in which Capita sought further information on PIP claims, from as high as 69 per cent of cases in January 2016, to just 1.8 per cent five months later.


    For the first seven months of the year, Atos was seeking further evidence in just five or six per cent of PIP cases, although that rose to 13 per cent in one of its two contract areas and 11 per cent in the other in December 2016, still far below the 50 per cent figure suggested by DWP in 2012.

    https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/the-pip-files-dwp-documents-show-absolutely-shocking-failure-on-further-evidence/
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    edited March 2018
    I wouldn't say DLA was easier to claim than PIP to claim in my case.

    In both cases I had to fill in a long form.  In both cases I had to have an assessment.  DLA, a doctor came to my house.  PIP, I went to an assessment centre to be assessed by an Atos paramedic.  

    DLA, the examining doctor wrote a very detailed, accurate report.  DWP also received a report from my GP, which was not due to pester-power.  I saw my GP fairly infrequently and their report was based on my hospital consultant's letters.

    PIP, the Atos paramedic wrote an inaccurate report, full of half truths and one blatant lie.

    This is where getting PIP became more difficult than DLA.  I was awarded DLA top rates both components without need to appeal.  PIP, I was awarded standard both components and had to go to a tribunal to be awarded enhanced.

    In other words, more people have to appeal under PIP than under DLA.  DWP are putting more unfair obstacles in the way to deter people from claiming PIP.






  • Waylay
    Waylay Community member, Scope Member Posts: 973 Pioneering
    wilko said:
    Obviously the acessor was not doing their acessment to the high standard as required. When filling in the form there is plenty of space to write addional information about your problems with daily living even adding extra sheets if needed. As for the acessment it's a two way thing you ,we have to be proactive in giving our answers and not a simple yes or no answers being asked by the acessor. If you feel the acessor does not understand your condition and situation then enlighten them, Inform them. Don't sit there silently.
    Two problems:
    1. Many, many assessors aren't doing the assessments to the "high standard as required". I've had 7 assessments now. 6 were ****. 6 tribunals. 6 wins. I can't tell you how bad this has been for my health.
    2. You're assuming that claimants are *able* be proactive. At this point I'm so anxious about the bloody assessments that I have to take enough diazepam to drug an elephant in order to attend. I'm incapable of being proactive in that state. Luckily, my friend who comes with me is bolshy as Hell.


  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,741 Listener
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