PIP Report missing crucial details! (and some lies!) -Apologies, accidentally posted twice! - Page 2 — Scope | Disability forum
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PIP Report missing crucial details! (and some lies!) -Apologies, accidentally posted twice!

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  • hdd
    hdd Community member Posts: 9 Listener
    cristobal said:
    @hdd - don't think that the only way of getting a car is through the Motability.

    Why don't you use your mobility award to put towards something newer yourself?

    And it's yours then not 'property of DWP' !!


    Unfortunately at this current time there is just no way I can financially fund a new car - especially not with the specs I would need. I am a student, and a mother so there unfortunately are so many other things I have to prioritise financially :( 
  • david235
    david235 Community member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    @OverlyAnxious and @hdd - I prefix what I am about to say by stressing that in no way am I minimising the severity of the challenges either of you face each day, nor the very real suffering you have faced because of your respective conditions. In your case, @hdd , it is possible that you do have grounds for points for "overwhelming psychological distress" but if you do then I suspect you did not deal all the issues in your claim and assessment that would need to address in order to get them - see the end of this message. @OverlyAnxious - I'm not familiar enough with your circumstances to say anything about your case.


    The original NHS Invalid Vehicle Scheme (the blue Invacars that some will remember), also the Mobility Allowance that was introduced initially as an alternative option to the IVS before it replaced the IVS, were solely about physical issues when walking. The Mobility Allowance became higher rate Mobility DLA with the same criteria. Higher rate Mobility was awarded to those who were unable or virtually unable to walk (which was commonly understood to mean walking ability of less than 50m) on a flat, level surface out of doors for physical reasons.

    Lower rate Mobility DLA was introduced to offer some mobility help to those who needed guidance or supervision when out of doors. It covered some but not all mental health barriers to mobility. It was not possible to get higher rate mobility DLA on mental health grounds.

    DLA took no account of the availability or suitability of alternatives to public transport for moving around.


    Part of the intent behind PIP, which was introduced in 2013, was to make disability benefits more inclusive of mental health issues. The 'moving around' activity remains solely about walking ability for physical reasons, but now is about all walking across a day, indoors and outdoors. The 'planning and following journeys' activity is about mental health, cognitive or learning difficulties and sensory impairments. Unlike with DLA, it is possible to be awarded a PIP Mobility component from a combination of physical and mental health issues, also enhanced rate PIP Mobility is available partly or solely on non-physical grounds.


    'Planning and following journeys' contains three things:
    • planning a journey - issues here tend to be cognitive or learning difficulties
    • following a route - issues here could be sensory, cognitive or learning difficulties and some mental health conditions
    • overwhelming psychological distress when undertaking a journey - most likely to be mental health but could also be cognitive or learning difficulties
    'Planning and following journeys' is about more than travelling on foot or by wheelchair / mobility scooter - it takes into account using public transport. If you can show that all journeys (both any travel by foot / wheelchair / mobility scooter and, when relevant, any use or hypothetical use of public transport) on a majority of days would result in overwhelming psychological distress then you score points -  4 points for this activity if being accompanied would overcome the overwhelming psychological distress, and 10 points fo this activity if being accompanied would not overcome the overwhelming psychological distress.


    No benefit has ever given a sufficiently high level of Mobility entitlement for Motability based solely on psychological distress.


    The need to use private rather than public transport for health reasons has never, by itself, been taken into account for the award of any points, let alone benefit. Far too many people could argue they need for private transport on health grounds for such a system to be able to meet the demand.

    Someone of working age I know who lives in central London is several hundred metres from a bus stop - far beyond her walking ability. Even though there is a good 24 hour bus service from that bus stop - which is far more than most of the country has - she cannot get to the bus except using a mobility scooter or powerchair. Should she be entitled to a level of benefit sufficient to enter Motability on that basis? As it happens, she has DLA higher rate Mobility and I think it most likely she will be awarded PIP enhanced rate Mobility purely from the "moving around" activity when she is reassessed. A car is of questionable use in central London and, in any event, she is and always has been medically unfit to drive.


    There has to be a line drawn somewhere with entitlement, much as this is hard for those who fall just the wrong side of the line. The system aims to focus available resources onto those in the greatest of need. A sizeable number of people who had long-standing higher rate mobility DLA awards have found that the tougher distance standard for 12 points on 'moving around' has meant they only get standard rate Mobility PIP.


    @hdd - as I said in my earlier reply to you, the standard for "overwhelming psychological distress" is tough. You have mentioned your mental health issues in relation to public transport and (to a lesser extent) when using your own car, but not walking  / wheelchair / mobility scooter.  If you have mental health symptoms that ever stop you attempting or completing a journey solely by walking / wheelchair / mobility scooter, or the distance you can travel by walking / wheelchair / mobility scooter without driving the rest of the way for mental health reasons is so low that you cannot actually complete a journey without your car, then you might meet the criteria for "overwhelming psychological distress".

    Is it perhaps the case that you walk the shortest distance possible to your car because any more than the barest minimum of walking is so unbearable for you that you might have a meltdown or panic attack, then you drive as close as possible to your destination and if you can't park close enough, you simply turn round and come home again? If so, perhaps it is worth seeking advice about whether there is an arguable case at reconsideration in relation to "planning and following journeys". If the advice was that you had an arguable case, you would need to explain that the walking / wheelchair / mobility scooter part of your journey is affected, not just any hypothetical use of public transport.

    It is very important you seek advice about the specifics of your case because there is no point going to reconsideration if it is not going to change anything in your favour, also reconsideration means the whole decision is looked at again and there is no guarantee you will retain points elsewhere.
  • david235
    david235 Community member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @hdd - don't think that the only way of getting a car is through the Motability.

    Why don't you use your mobility award to put towards something newer yourself?

    And it's yours then not 'property of DWP' !!
    I thought I'd deal with Motability in a separate reply because my last one was very long already.


    Motability is actually nothing to do with DWP - it's a charity (Motability) and a vehicle and mobility equipment leasing operator (Motability Operations plc, which is owned by several of the major banks). Those that choose to assign some or all of their entitlement to their Mobility component to Motability do so freely and the money they contribute to the scheme covers the costs to Motability of providing the equipment and related services they are given to use. The charitable part of Motability primarily exists to cover the very high costs on top of benefit (advanced payment plus the cost of adaptations) faced by some who could not otherwise afford a suitable vehicle. Drive from wheelchair vans can cost £80,000 or more. At one point Motability subsidised driving lessons for some younger disabled people that were joining the scheme; I don't know whether they still do.

    Motability Operations is able to obtain vehicles without liability for VAT because the vehicles are for disabled people. It gets substantial price breaks from manufacturers because of the volume of business it puts their ways - part of the justification for these price breaks is because it provides a constant supply of good quality three and five year old vehicles to the motor trade.

    It has always been the case that Motability is only open to those on the highest level of mobility benefit (DLA higher rate Mobility, PIP enhanced rate Mobility, War Pensioners Mobility Supplement and Armed Forces Independence Payment). They have never allowed those on the lower rate to 'top up' or for disabled people who have never had or have lost a qualifying benefit to pay to use the scheme. Even with these tough entitlement rules, they are a huge operator in the vehicle leasing market and if they widened their sphere of operations it could significantly distort the vehicle market to the detriment of the vehicle manufacturers whose goodwill the scheme, in part, depends.


    Motability is not the only way of getting a vehicle using your mobility benefit. I have never used Motability despite being entitled to use the scheme for over 20 years. It has always made more sense financially for me to buy a new or nearly new vehicle privately, then keep it for as long as is possible. In part, this is because I am entitled to buy vehicles from two manufacturers at employee rates (as my father is a pensioner of two of the major car manufacturers, who allow nominated family members of pensioners to buy discounted vehicles), but the primary reason is my low annual mileage.

    It used to be the case that some manufacturers offered discounts for Blue Badge holders. I don't know whether this is still the case, but the information is out there.


    If your needs are relatively straightforward - a small unadapted hatchback in reasonable condition that is three to four years old with a service history and, when relevant, automatic transmission - you might be able to get a much better deal buying, insuring, servicing and running that vehicle privately. At bare minimum Motability will cost you something like £8700 in Mobility component over three years, and you may have a bit more on top of that to find especially if you want or need an automatic. At the end of the three years you have nothing, other than perhaps a tiny good condition bonus.

    To be honest, I am out of touch with the small end of the car market and of used car prices, as this sort of vehicle cannot meet my needs.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 2019
    @david235 - you may be right about Motability being separate to DWP so technically they DWP don't own the car...

    What I meant was that DWP fund the car - and if they stop funding it the car goes back. There's no opportunity as far as I know to continue paying the cost yourself...
  • david235
    david235 Community member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    You are correct, @hdd - losing your qualifying benefit means any Motablity agreement comes to an end. It is possible to get a short period of grace, but you do not have the option to keep paying the cost yourself. The only options you have are to buy the vehicle from Motability or return it.

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