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PIP APPEAL HEARING EXPERIENCE

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  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    male45 said:
    HMCTS don't contact ESA because PIP and ESA have different criteria and one doesn't affect the other.
    I hope you're right and thank you :smile:
    I am correct. As for your rep, i would also have a long think about whether or not to stick with them. Seems to me like they may not be the best person to represent you.
    Thank you :)
    Best Wishes 
  • paffuto10
    paffuto10 Community member Posts: 388 Pioneering
    @male45

    Sorry that both you and your wife are feeling down about it all today. Hardly surprising really.

    Re my son. The problem is he keeps telling everyone he's ok (he really isn't, that's why he's in supported living). 
    We feel OK with the result, he now has the same as the dla, so that's good. 

    I really hope your situation gets sorted, whole thing is just mind boggling.!! 

    Wishing you both strength to continue.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    worried33 said:
    Consider the @cristobal advice.

    In my previous work with tribunals, I was always told treat the panel with respect 'always'.  Dont let things get personal.  Its not a game of roulette where you expect things to even out, if a particular judge gives a lot of judgements against you it could simply be down to those particular cases and they fell on that judge.  The rep isnt acting in a manner that would fill me with confidence.

    In my last tribunal where I represented myself, I was grilled pretty heavily, and didnt think it was going to end well.  But I did get the award I went in for.  If you expect the judge and panel to trust you, then you also have to trust them, it works both ways.
    Thank you. You say with previous work with tribunials?
    I dont know tbh if my rep has given panels a hard time or this one judge. I may be giving everyone a wrong impression of him because of his words and how he looked after returning to the waiting room to us.
    But. Having said that the thought did cross my mind if he is giving panels a hard time in particular this one judge.
    Or is my mind playing me as I'm feeling so confused and down today four days after sitting there for two hours, one full hour passed my official scheduled hearing time.
    Weve met with my rep several times giving him info on my medical condition  the meds I'm on dates I've been to hospital and reasons why or for mri or xray and so on. Hes always appeared very polite and smart, posh even. He appears to recognise a good few signatures on copies of letters sent to my gp from mental health organisations and so on.
    I could be barking up the wrong tree however in trying to convince myself hes ok or giving you members the impression he isn't.
    I'm just so very confused.
    I'm also thinking that if, I drop this appeal in order to save my standard daily living then whatever has taken place up to dropping it will go against me when I'm next up for pip assessment and lose it all and then it all starts all over again.

    Best Wishes 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,339 Disability Gamechanger
    The only time you need to think about whether to cancel the appeal is if you're warned you could lose the award you already have. If there's no warning then you can't lose that award, so you may as well continue. The worst that can happen is that they agree with DWP and you'll remain on your existing award.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    paffuto10 said:
    @male45

    Sorry that both you and your wife are feeling down about it all today. Hardly surprising really.

    Re my son. The problem is he keeps telling everyone he's ok (he really isn't, that's why he's in supported living). 
    We feel OK with the result, he now has the same as the dla, so that's good. 

    I really hope your situation gets sorted, whole thing is just mind boggling.!! 

    Wishing you both strength to continue.
    Hi, thank you for your kind words they do help us knowing that folk like yourself and others here who have commented are there listening and supportive. 
    I wish you and your family good wishes aglad that you are OK with your sons results. Maybe one day your son will say something else.
    Best wishes :)
    Best Wishes 
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    The only time you need to think about whether to cancel the appeal is if you're warned you could lose the award you already have. If there's no warning then you can't lose that award, so you may as well continue. The worst that can happen is that they agree with DWP and you'll remain on your existing award.
    Hello poppy123456
    I'm only thinking that we could lose after my rep said we need to be careful how we approach our appeal we dont need to give some things too early in the appeal to them or say things too early. For example part of my ptsd is from trauma going back 40 years of troubles here in belfast which started when I was 11 my best friend of 9 was killed by a stray bullet. I never saw him again. Over the years between bombs n bullets in my city my mental health took a dive. I worked as a post man for a few yrs before moving into bus driving. Going basically from bad to worse having to walk around burnt out vehicles and burning buildings in the early mornings delivering mail to being hijacked, petrol bombed and robbed and more as a bus driver.
    I even treated an injured soldiers two legs where he was injured in a bomb. Now after all these yrs I can see each individual event as clear as I'm typing this.
    I feel my mental health is not being taken into consideration by the pip assessment because the assessor stopped typing when I broke down and restarted when I started talking but never anywhere mentioned this in her report. She even has down that I have certain school qualifications whereas in truth I was married with 4 children by the time those exams hit schools.
    My rep says same he thinks my mental health isn't being considered.
    Having to venture into belfast had me up for nights on end thinking what if someone knows me am I in danger and so on. Sitting the length of time had me so uncomfortable I was actually glad to get outside for fresh air.
    The thought of having to go back in Belfast has me twice as bad now.

    Best Wishes 
  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 2019
    "my rep said we need to be careful how we approach our appeal we dont need to give some things too early in the appeal to them or say things too early"

    @male45 - as i said I've never been to a tribunal but it does seem that your rep is overthinking things and making it more complicated than it needs be. Surely the best tactic is to tell the panel why you should be awarded PIP and avoid getting all Rumple of the Bailey about it..

    That said if he's a professional adviser then he should know what he's doing ...

    Just my opinion - I'm really sorry to hear of the problems that you're having and I hope that everything turns out OK..

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,339 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm sorry to hear that. A poorly presented case can lead to refusal and if you're not careful this could happen here. I'm not saying you'll lose the award you already have because as previously advised, they can't do this without first warning you that they could happen.

    You should be concentrating on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. What happened during your assessment and what was written in the report doesn't matter now because that's gone. You can't prove what happened or what didn't happen. The Tribunal won't be in the least bit interested in any of that. All they will be interested in is where you think you should have scored those points.

    If i were you and i had a rep like you have then i'd be worried and i would either find someone else, or continue on my own.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    "my rep said we need to be careful how we approach our appeal we dont need to give some things too early in the appeal to them or say things too early"

    @male45 - as i said I've never been to a tribunal but it does seem that your rep is overthinking things and making it more complicated than it needs be. Surely the best tactic is to tell the panel why you should be awarded PIP and avoid getting all Rumple of the Bailey about it..

    That said if he's a professional adviser then he should know what he's doing ...

    Just my opinion - I'm really sorry to hear of the problems that you're having and I hope that everything turns out OK..

    Hi cristobal 
    Thank you for being there for me I do appreciate it.
    Urs I agree with you that the simplest way is to face the tribunal and exchange answers for questions. 
    My wife would be in the room with me as shes my carer and she too will be asked questions I presume. She is so nervous she over talks, by this I mean if a question requires a simple yes or no answer she just doesnt do that and if corrected then she feels so overwhelmed she stutters very badly. I dont want her stressed out as shes enough problems. Shes been asked to show by my rep as he said theyll want to talk to her and he himself will put some questions to her. She forgets weve moved house  and all matters are fir our old house. I've had to remind her several times whilst she myself and rep were going over things in the waiting room. And yes I could ask her not to attend  but that would make her feel bad and me for asking and I dont want I'll feelings after at home lol. 
    As politicians here dont sit in stormont but still are paid, they dont care about welfare claimants.
    The second largest party covers the area where I live, but I'm loathed to approach them for any help because of their passed. So it's either I go it alone or with this rep.
    I
    Uouve given me food for thought which I'll have a good think on.
    Thank you and thank you.

    Best Wishes 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,339 Disability Gamechanger
    Don't presume they will ask your wife any questions because they don't always do this. Sometimes they will ask at the end if there's anything they want to add but it doesn't always happen.

    You will need to answer those questions in your own words.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    I'm sorry to hear that. A poorly presented case can lead to refusal and if you're not careful this could happen here. I'm not saying you'll lose the award you already have because as previously advised, they can't do this without first warning you that they could happen.

    You should be concentrating on where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. What happened during your assessment and what was written in the report doesn't matter now because that's gone. You can't prove what happened or what didn't happen. The Tribunal won't be in the least bit interested in any of that. All they will be interested in is where you think you should have scored those points.

    If i were you and i had a rep like you have then i'd be worried and i would either find someone else, or continue on my own.
    Hi poppy123456
    Thank you for listening.
    Yes I have the choice of going it alone. I would if I could I just find it very hard to face people and trust them.
    This is in my pip forms and mandatory requests. When that was refused I wrote a very long letter to the dwp pointing out many things and how I am. 
    That letter is with my rep I saw it as he was going through everything.  I had forgotten I wrote it. I did it in haste and anger but was polite in it.
    I'll have a long talk with my rep next Thursday and if I have bad vibes from him then I'll ditch him. But I know having already searched around here I will not have help from other organisations. 
    Thank you :)
    Best Wishes 
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    male45 said:
    worried33 said:
    Consider the @cristobal advice.

    In my previous work with tribunals, I was always told treat the panel with respect 'always'.  Dont let things get personal.  Its not a game of roulette where you expect things to even out, if a particular judge gives a lot of judgements against you it could simply be down to those particular cases and they fell on that judge.  The rep isnt acting in a manner that would fill me with confidence.

    In my last tribunal where I represented myself, I was grilled pretty heavily, and didnt think it was going to end well.  But I did get the award I went in for.  If you expect the judge and panel to trust you, then you also have to trust them, it works both ways.
    Thank you. You say with previous work with tribunials?
    I dont know tbh if my rep has given panels a hard time or this one judge. I may be giving everyone a wrong impression of him because of his words and how he looked after returning to the waiting room to us.
    But. Having said that the thought did cross my mind if he is giving panels a hard time in particular this one judge.
    Or is my mind playing me as I'm feeling so confused and down today four days after sitting there for two hours, one full hour passed my official scheduled hearing time.
    Weve met with my rep several times giving him info on my medical condition  the meds I'm on dates I've been to hospital and reasons why or for mri or xray and so on. Hes always appeared very polite and smart, posh even. He appears to recognise a good few signatures on copies of letters sent to my gp from mental health organisations and so on.
    I could be barking up the wrong tree however in trying to convince myself hes ok or giving you members the impression he isn't.
    I'm just so very confused.
    I'm also thinking that if, I drop this appeal in order to save my standard daily living then whatever has taken place up to dropping it will go against me when I'm next up for pip assessment and lose it all and then it all starts all over again.

    I have never represented others myself, wasnt qualified to do so, but I worked with people who did the representation, so learnt a few things from them.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    Ok worried 33 I understand. 
    I've a few days until thursday to give this a long hard thought.
    I've been so down I dudnt even attend my nieces wedding in Friday. My brother wont be si understanding as you and others have been here. So thank you for being there.
    Best Wishes 
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    Can anyone tell me if I lost points because I had a rollator and walking sticks on day of the assessment? 
    I did tell the assessor that I only had them a few days before she arrived  but that wasnt acknowledged in her report. I dont like using the rollator outside when I have to travel to hospital or my gp but I do. The worst part of using it is my wife and I can no longer link arms like we used to because the rear wheels tend to trip her up. 
    Maybe someone else has the same problem? 
    Thank you. 
    Best Wishes 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,339 Disability Gamechanger
    They are both classed as aids for walking so you won't lose points for needing them. This is part of the mobility "moving around" part.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    Hi everyone. I've not been on here for a few days because I've been thinking long and hard about my appeal.  I've sat with my wife and family discussing it. . My wife like myself has been totally stressed out about it. Having sat in the waiting room well past my scheduled time nerves got to us. Since last wed we both have lost a lot of sleep and have eaten very little. On Friday we received a confirmation letter from the appeal office stating w0hy the appeal was adjourned.  They not only list that they want to see MRI scan images, they also added cray scan images, all hospital letters I've attended 4 different hospitals over the past 4 years alone, they also want letters and records from physiotherapy  and OT departments for last 4 years and why my driving licence was removed. The latter is simply I surrendered it myself because of the meds I'm on and dizziness and pain. It's against the law to drink and drive and also drug and drive and also if you take meds which affect your driving and fail to inform the Dylan they can fine you 1,000 pounds and remove your licence. This way I can always ask for it back but I dint intend to.
    So folks because I'm watching my wife very stressed out and I do mean stressed out I'm going to drop my appeal. She has asked me to because she can't cope. 
    Any comments for and against are welcome and thank you.
    Best Wishes 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,339 Disability Gamechanger
    The only person that can decide what to do is yourself. It's very difficult to give you any advice on this because no one knows how your conditions affect you. If you do change your mind i would definitely advise you to find a different representative.

    What ever your final decision is good luck.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • david235
    david235 Community member Posts: 170 Pioneering
    @male45 - I understand this is a very distressing and emotional time for you and your wife.


    I want to try to step back from the emotion a little and focus on the task of the First-tier Tribunal in benefits cases.Their task is to look at the arguments put forward by the claimant and the DWP about entitlement to a benefit - in this case PIP - and make a decision that is fair both to the claimant and DWP. The role of the Tribunal is a benefits claim is different to a court. A court merely looks at the case put forwards by both sides and reaches a decision - it is an adversarial system. The First-tier Tribunal enquires into entitlement to benefit based on the evidence before it, often including the ability to question the claimant in person - it is an inquisitorial system.

    The inquisitorial nature of the tribunal means that if it fails to enquire fully into all matters relevant to entitlement to benefit then they fall into error in a way that could lead to their decision being set aside by the Upper Tribunal owing to a breach of natural justice. The doctor clearly has unanswered questions about some medical aspects of your condition and wants confirmatory information - just because this information has been asked for doesn't necessarily mean it will go against you. The information could support your arguments and rebut the doctor's doubt.


    I know an adjournment is not what you wanted - but an accurate decision is in everyone's interests now, especially after all this time. It is far better the doctor says "I have doubts here, I need further information to try to answer my concerns" than the doctor says "I have doubts here, we should rule against this man".


    The driving licence point is answered by writing a letter along the lines of:

    I surrendered my driving licence voluntarily to DVLA on <date> as I believed I no longer met the medical standards to drive owing to impairment from my condition and the medication I take.

    You can then go on to list the specific issues that led to your voluntary surrender - you don't need a massive amount of detail, just a few sentences. If you have the confirmation of voluntary surrender letter to hand, I would enclose a copy. Make sure any papers have your name and NI number on them.


    The rest of the request is likely answered by working with your GP practice - they should be able to assist you with copies of hospital letters and to obtain copies of scans.


    If you drop your appeal now, the original decision will stand and cannot be challenged further. There should be no risk in continuing your appeal so long as you are not notified that the Tribunal is minded to reduce your entitlement to benefit; if you get that notification then you need to consult with your representative as to whether you continue and risk the standard Daily Living award you have or stick with what you have.
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    The only person that can decide what to do is yourself. It's very difficult to give you any advice on this because no one knows how your conditions affect you. If you do change your mind i would definitely advise you to find a different representative.

    What ever your final decision is good luck.
    Thank you poppy. I feel like I'm running away. I think if I drop it then I will wait for my reassessment and hopefully pass it health can become worse between now and then so you never know. In the morning I'll post what I've decided and carried out.
    Best Wishes 
  • male45
    male45 Community member Posts: 336 Pioneering
    david235 said:
    @male45 - I understand this is a very distressing and emotional time for you and your wife.


    I want to try to step back from the emotion a little and focus on the task of the First-tier Tribunal in benefits cases.Their task is to look at the arguments put forward by the claimant and the DWP about entitlement to a benefit - in this case PIP - and make a decision that is fair both to the claimant and DWP. The role of the Tribunal is a benefits claim is different to a court. A court merely looks at the case put forwards by both sides and reaches a decision - it is an adversarial system. The First-tier Tribunal enquires into entitlement to benefit based on the evidence before it, often including the ability to question the claimant in person - it is an inquisitorial system.

    The inquisitorial nature of the tribunal means that if it fails to enquire fully into all matters relevant to entitlement to benefit then they fall into error in a way that could lead to their decision being set aside by the Upper Tribunal owing to a breach of natural justice. The doctor clearly has unanswered questions about some medical aspects of your condition and wants confirmatory information - just because this information has been asked for doesn't necessarily mean it will go against you. The information could support your arguments and rebut the doctor's doubt.


    I know an adjournment is not what you wanted - but an accurate decision is in everyone's interests now, especially after all this time. It is far better the doctor says "I have doubts here, I need further information to try to answer my concerns" than the doctor says "I have doubts here, we should rule against this man".


    The driving licence point is answered by writing a letter along the lines of:

    I surrendered my driving licence voluntarily to DVLA on <date> as I believed I no longer met the medical standards to drive owing to impairment from my condition and the medication I take.

    You can then go on to list the specific issues that led to your voluntary surrender - you don't need a massive amount of detail, just a few sentences. If you have the confirmation of voluntary surrender letter to hand, I would enclose a copy. Make sure any papers have your name and NI number on them.


    The rest of the request is likely answered by working with your GP practice - they should be able to assist you with copies of hospital letters and to obtain copies of scans.


    If you drop your appeal now, the original decision will stand and cannot be challenged further. There should be no risk in continuing your appeal so long as you are not notified that the Tribunal is minded to reduce your entitlement to benefit; if you get that notification then you need to consult with your representative as to whether you continue and risk the standard Daily Living award you have or stick with what you have.
    Thank you David. You have given me food for thought.  I have to decide in the morning as to what to do. 
    I will post back when I do. 

    Best Wishes 

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