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PIP descriptors

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  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    The assessors guide states that they should conduct a physical examination of the claimant.  Is the assessor allowed to ask the claimant to remove any of their clothes?

    Matilda
  • julierose
    julierose Community member Posts: 23 Connected
    they did not ask me too in fact they came to my home  the physical was very short they asked a few questions and all over pretty quick ....i cant see why  they would need to have you remove your clothes 
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    I meant can they ask you to take off outer clothes such as shoes and cardigan/jacket?  

    The assessors' guide recommends a fairly thorough examination (though not intimate), for example asking claimants to lie down on a couch, whereas in practice assessors seem to conduct a shorter examination.

    Were you awarded PIP, julierose?
  • Debbie_Alumni
    Debbie_Alumni Community member Posts: 932 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    As it's a physical examination I expect that they probably could ask you to remove your coat and shoes just as you would if you were having a physical examination at your GP's surgery. I wouldn't expect that you would have to remove any more than that but each assessment should be tailored to the claimant's individual circumstances so it does depend on which parts of the body are affected. 

    You're right, in practice the physical examinations are quite short. Could this be because they're getting their information from the informal observations? 

    If you're not comfortable with anything the assessor asks you to do, don't do it.

    Best wishes
    Debbie


       
  • julierose
    julierose Community member Posts: 23 Connected
    i have not heard  from PIP yet as such as descision, i did however get a letter apologising about the delay ,i am sure they must be pretty busy,
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Julie

    My consultation letter says a decision should be made in 4-8 weeks.  Have to wait and see. As you say, they must be busy.
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Yes, they could be getting their info from the informal observations. Or, as an assessment that thoroughly covered all ground detailed in the guide would take rather longer than the expected 60 minutes, inevitably the physical examination and other sections have to be shortened. Therefore, many potential grounds for appeal.

    Matilda

  • Debbie_Alumni
    Debbie_Alumni Community member Posts: 932 Pioneering
    You're absolutely right @matilda, lots of grounds for appeal! I think we're going to see much more case law building in the future too.
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    My assessment on 10 Oct was an inquisition.  The assessor was trying to trip me up, to get me to contradict what I had said in my claim form and diary.   My answers confirmed what I had put in writing but two were less firm than they should have been as by then I was very tired after an hour of being questioned.  Atos and the DWP are likely to exploit any perceived loophole.

    Now awaiting a decision.  Have asked for a copy of the Atos report which I don't expect to be dealt with until the DWP case worker looks at my file to make a decision. Although the DWP have said that a copy of the report will be sent to me, Disability Rights have stated on their website that assessors' reports have been withheld from claimants until appeal stage.
  • JoanneMontgomery
    JoanneMontgomery Community member Posts: 9 Connected
    Hi Matilda,  I am on medium level of care and Highest level of mobility DLA awarded indefinitely.  I rang them before I ordered my new car,  which I've had for about eight weeks now,  to ask if they were due to bring PIP conversion into my area of Hampshire in the near future.  They said definately not for the next two to four years.  So I ordered my car. Last week they sent me a text to say I have to apply for PIP or loose my FLA?  
    I'm waiting for the form to arrive with real dread.  I have a real problem with opening my mail, I've been this way for well over fifteen years now,  I find the form filling very stressful and it took me three weeks to fill in the last one for ESA!  I hide it,  think I've done it,  tell myself I have then find it not done!  So I'm really scared.  I can't loose my car again!  It happened to me before,  the judge was so cross I'd been put through it all and awarded it back to me indefinately promising me I'd never have to go through this ever again?  
    You referred to sending them a diary?  I think that would be good for me to do.  It would explain what my life is like spending most of my time in bed,  because to be up I have to take large doses of morphine and muscle relaxants.  They make me tiered and it's a bit of a vicious circle!  Would I have to get permission from anyone to send in a diary with the form? Thank you for all the information and directions.  This is a wonderful site. 
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Joanne

    I'm really sorry to hear that the DWP gave you conflicting info - case of the left hand of a faceless bureaucracy not knowing what the right is doing.  So, no surprise there.

    It took me a long time to fill in my PIP form.  I phoned DWP to ask for extra time because it was a long, complex form and I would need to seek help to complete it.  They gave me two extra weeks, so in practice I had about five weeks to fill in the form.  If you need extra time, phone DWP.  And don't let them fob you off - insist that you need more time  because you have to get help.

    The Disability Rights website gives a draft diary which you can adapt to suit your circumstances.  Even the DWP PIP notes recommend sending a diary so, of course, no need to ask permission.  I sent in a week's diary.

    Have a look at

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519119/personal-independence-payment-handbook.pdf

    referred to above by Debbie, with a link.  This gives details of what health professionals should look for on the application form and diary.  And take a look at Disability Rights and CAB guides to PIP on their respective websites, especially the former.

    Disability Rights say you should list in the diary all the aids you use, and they also say that you get points if you are unable to complete a task.
      
    Then, when you get an assessment date, look at what Disability Rights and CAB have to say about this and at the PIP assessment guide for professionals referred to above by Debbie, with a link.   This is very illuminating - it advises assessors how to go about tripping claimants up, to get them to contradict, if only by omission, turn of phrase, or lack of clarity, what they said in their form and diary!  So, you'll know some of the traps to look out for.

    I hope you don't lose your car again, Joanna.  It's shocking what the DWP are putting us through.  We are being re-assessed, not by the original criteria on which we were awarded DLA indefinitely, but on much narrower criteria, all to save money.  One day we are disabled, the next we are not.  Miraculous!

    When I went for my assessment, Atos had even dragged in two people in wheelchairs.  One man in a wheelchair was cursing DWP/Atos out loud something awful - I can't repeat what he said!  But he spoke for all of us, I think.

    Matilda
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
  • Debbie_Alumni
    Debbie_Alumni Community member Posts: 932 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    It sounds like you had quite an ordeal on the day. Well done for getting through it. It seems that all the worries and concerns you had came true. We won't know until they make a decision and inform you of it but it's good that you've made a note of how the assessment went in case you need that as evidence for an appeal. Hopefully it won't come to that but it's good to plan for the worst and starting thinking ahead to challenging a negative decision (if one is made), particularly when things are fresh in your memory.

    I hope that you don't have to wait too long for a decision. From what I hear of the front line it's usually around 4-8 weeks after assessment that a decision is received. This does vary across the country though.

    The advice you've given above to @JoanneMontgomery is fabulous. I hope you've found it helpful Joanne. It's incredibly frustrating that you rang up and made a general enquiry about whether PIP is in your area and this then led to an invitation to claim PIP. It should be the case that DLA claimants are invited to claim PIP if they are reporting a change in circumstances, not making a general enquiry. I have heard of this happening and the claimant concerned did not qualify for PIP. Claimant subsequently appealed the validity of the invitation in the absence of a change of circumstances but although the general enquiry didn't count as criteria for PIP migration, there is a general power for the Secretary of State to invite anyone to claim PIP. The claimant lost the appeal regarding the validity of the invitation at Upper Tribunal on this basis.

    I'm really sorry that this has happened. Follow the advice above and be as detailed as you can in the 'How your disability affects you form'. Send as much evidence as you can. Remember the 'reliability criteria' and if you think you might have problems attending a face to face assessment make sure you state this in the form and if you can provide evidence at this stage, that would help support your needs.

    If you need anything else please do let us know, Matilda is becoming quite the PIP expert here and is doing a wonderful job.

    Very best wishes
    Debbie :)
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Thank you very much for your advice and for the compliments.  I hope that I've been of help to Joanna.

    Best wishes

    Matilda
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Have received the assessor's report on which she is described as a 'paramedic', so not a medical expert.

    It appears that assessors do indeed place a lot of weight on informal observations!  Her observations were accurate, except in one important respect. She claimed that I took my handbag off over my head and then picked it up from the floor and put it back on over my head after the interview.  At no time did I take my handbag off, not even during the physical examination which took place sitting on a chair.   I was also carrying a carrier bag which I put on the chair next to me, not on the floor.

    There are other inaccuracies in the report.

    The report states:

     that I can take a bath unaided using aids - but she does not add that bathing takes me a very long time as I have stated in my form.

    that I take a mild to moderate painkiller, Naproxen.  Naproxen is prescription-only and I have always believed that this is a strong painkiller - but I will check this.

    that I have quite a lot of motor movement.  However, and I know many people tend to say this, this really was an exceptionally good day for me  I didn't even have to take any painkillers and i cannot recall the previous day on which I did not need to take any painkillers.

    This part of the report concludes that the functional restrictions affecting daily living activities have been present for three months and are likely to last at least nine months.

    The assessor has decided that I can walk more than 20 metres but not more than 50 metres, using an aid, based on my being able to walk the 16 metres from the waiting room to the assessment room!   And of course this route was indoors on carpet, not outside on uneven pavement and using curbs.  Furthermore, as I've already stated, this was an exceptionally good day.

    Assessor has also ticked three and nine months for mobility activities.

    Report states that my claim should be reviewed in five years.

    My feeling is that I am going to get a negative decision but also that I have good grounds for an appeal.

    How can assessors claim to be able to make an accurate physical assessment based on one hour's observation on one day?  Of course, that day might be untypical, might be exceptionally good or, for that matter, exceptionally bad.

    Best wishes

    Matilda










  • Debbie_Alumni
    Debbie_Alumni Community member Posts: 932 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    Thanks for posting this, it's really interesting to learn how the assessment was conducted and that you've already picked out some inaccuracies from it including how you didn't actually take your bag off during the examination. It's interesting that you've also confirmed how much the informal observations play into the assessment process. 

    I have to admit I did a quick google on Naproxen because I too was under the impression that this is a strong painkiller. I managed to establish that it acts as a slower releasing painkiller and it's in the same class as ibuprofen but that's about it. Might be worth a chat with your GP or pharmacist? 

    The decision maker will look at the report along with your 'how your disability affects you' form and all of the medical evidence you provided. So although you feel you might get a negative decision you could well be surprised. I can't see a no PIP at all award from what you've said and you've been given a recommend review period of 5 years so this is positive.

    From the report have you been able to work out how many points overall you may have scored? It sounds as though you will at least qualify for the standard rate of mobility based on the assessment that you can walk more than 20m but less than 50m and this scores 8 points. Do you agree with this descriptor? Was any mention made of the reliability criteria? Did you score anything under the planning and following journeys?

    I think there are good grounds for an appeal if you get a negative decision. If you want to talk it over once you get the decision, let me know and we can book a telephone appointment to work out what your options are.

    In the meantime I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

    Best wishes
    Debbie
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    Thank you for your reply.  I'm encouraged by what you have said that you can't see a no PIP at all award and that a recommended review in five years is positive.

    My understanding is that standard mobility component is awarded only to those who cannot plan routes, etc.  I have not claimed any difficulty there.  My claim is based on my not being able to walk more than 20 metres outdoors before I need to stop and rest.   I fail to see how the assessor can decide that I can walk more than 20 metres outdoors simply because I can walk 16 metres indoors.

    Thank you for your encouragement and advice and, if I receive a negative decision, I would like to talk it over and will let you know and book a telephone appointment to discuss options.

    When I feel a bit stronger, I'll see if I can work the possible points score from the report.  I'll ask about Naproxen.  It must be a strong painkiller as I have to take Lanzaprazole as well to protect my stomach against getting ulcers which Naproxen can cause.  Naproxen can also cause heart attacks and other serious side effects.  My understanding is that only strong medication can cause serious side effects (unless mild/moderate are taken in excess).

    The assessor said nothing about reliability.  She has stated that I can bathe myself but has not added that it takes me a very long time; therefore, she has not applied the reliability criterion here.

    Best wishes

    Matilda
  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Debbie

    I have been awarded PIP both components at standard rate whereas I was receiving DLA care highest rate and mobility higher rate.  I am surprised that I have been awarded PIP standard rate mobility because I put nothing in that section on my 'How your disability affects you' form and thought that this rate was only for those who cannot find their way around without help.

    I am minded strongly to appeal as I think I have good grounds but I am so tired today that I cannot read about the next stage, mandatory reconsideration, today.  I hope that after a good night's sleep tonight I'll feel able to deal with the mandatory reconsideration process tomorrow.

    It is important that I appeal as reduction from higher rate to standard rate disability benefit will mean, not only reduction in disability benefit itself, but also loss of other benefits that apply only to higher rate, not to standard rate.

    Regards

    Matilda



  • Matilda
    Matilda Community member Posts: 2,593 Disability Gamechanger
    Just some of my grounds for appeal will be these:

    Atos lied on report form, lies repeated by DWP on decision form; no account has been taken of reliability criteria, specifically the very long time it takes for me to complete tasks; decision form says I can chop and peel vegetables on good days - but I have said on my form, and also told the Atos assessor, that there are far more bad days than good ones when I cannot chop and peel vegetables.
  • Debbie_Alumni
    Debbie_Alumni Community member Posts: 932 Pioneering
    Hi @Matilda,

    I hope you're feeling better today and feel more able to press ahead with the mandatory reconsideration.

    You've done a great job so far in researching and picking apart your assessment report. 

    In the 'How to win a PIP appeal' guide there is a Mandatory Reconsideration letter tool which will generate a letter for you. http://www.advicenow.org.uk/pip-tool hopefully this link will take you straight to that tool.

    I hope it helps take some of the pressure off.

    Best wishes
    Debbie

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