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Pip Assessment report being inaccurate

Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
edited September 2018 in PIP, DLA and AA
I have just received a copy of my assessors report which I asked for immediately due to the way I was treat in the interview.
I am horrified that half of what I said is not in the report.
She says I have normal power and movement in both legs despite arthritis in my right hip and degenerative discs in my lower back which causes pain and numbness in my left leg, this also gives way sometimes. I would normally use sticks and a wheelchair but because I was able to walk 10m on the carpet she is assuming I can walk 20-50 metres aided - what an absolute joke! I would be in agony for the day if had to do this often and would take me forever. I am guessing I will now lose my enhanced mobility, which I have been getting for years.
I also have degenerative discs in my neck which have been operated on once and needing it again. She made me do movements that had me in tears! She has said that I can dress using aids even though I said I need my husband to help dress my lower body.
I said I needed assistance in and out of the bath as I cannot lift my left leg well but she has just put that I only shower when my husband is home for the safe feeling.

I cannot believe that half of what I said has been omitted!

I have not received the award but I know what is coming.

So upset at all of this!

Any advice anyone?

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Replies

  • Ami2301Ami2301 Posts: 3,804Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Hi @Horrified65
    Welcome to the community! Sorry to hear what has happened. Have you considered appealing the decision?
    You're a fighter. Look at everything you've overcome. Don't give up now!
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    I dont actually have the decision yet but just know from the report what it will be.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Posts: 1,368Member Chatterbox
    Hi @Horrified65 and welcome to the community! I am so sorry to hear that the report was so incorrect. I do wish you the best of luck with the decision. However, if you do have to appeal then this is something the community will definitely be able to help with.
  • bronwynbronwyn Posts: 3Member Listener
    My assessment was very similar ,my daughter pushed me in a wheelchair to the examination room and hooked up with me til I sat down in the chair ,I was stated as being able to walk 10 to 20 yards unaided and the most I walked with my daughters help was approx 5 foot , I’m now losing my motability  vehicle  on 30 October despite still waiting for mandatory reconsideration , I wasn’t even examined on my legs and part of my claim stated I have osteoporosis and osteoarthritis in my right knee  , I don’t know where they get the assessors but they need changing for someone who actually listens to what’s written and said  .
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    Bronwyn This is awful. She did not examine my legs nor do I feel as a nurse she is qualified to make this type of decision. I have had my vehicle for about 12 years now and reading her report I am guessing I will lose mine too. I will fight this. I have spoken with my MP and she also going to supprt me. 
    How long have you been waiting for your Mandatory Reconsideration?
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
     I was able to walk 10m on the carpet she is assuming I can walk 20-50 metres aided 

    Isn't this just one opinion V another?
    The assessor doesn't have to prove their report is correct - all they are saying is that you were seen to manage to walk 10 metres and the opinion is that you can walk at least 21 metres.

    What you have to do is prove that you cannot walk beyond 20 metres using the reliability criteria.

    As a warning, my walking ability was tested at the spinal unit in hospital to establish if I could be independent in my own home. I fell off the walking machine at just over 10 metres. The consultant in his report to my GP & Social Services was that I could only physically walk no more than 15/20 metres before losing control of my legs.
    The assessor's opinion was that I could walk more than 200 metres for which the DWP accepted as being correct!

    In my case I gave up claiming PIP as there was no way that I could produce anymore clear evidence than I had already.
  • debbiedo49debbiedo49 Posts: 2,514Member Brian Blessed
    You will find lots of people on here are being disappointed by inaccurate pip assessment reports. I'm afraid that it seems that some people have to be prepared to go through the horrible process all way to tribunal. Don't worry about the report just get help and use it to fight your case with. 


    I am a fibrowarrior!
  • bronwynbronwyn Posts: 3Member Listener
    Horrified65 , I sent my reconsideration request in and it was received on 26/8/18 but I phone them on 10/9/18 as I had not been advised that it was received to be told that it hadn’t been registered until I phoned them because they didn’t know wether I want it to be done , as if I’d send a request for a mandatory reconsideration form in if I dint want it doing , I’ll let you know how I get on with it and then if I go to appeal at tribunal 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    Although many people do not recognise themselves in HCP reports you need to focus less on proving the HCP wrong and more on the strength of your own supporting evidence. If your case gets to tribunal you're largely kicking at an open door when it comes to the weight given to their report. However, ensuring their evidence gets less weight does not mean your evidence is automatically better or given more weight.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    Thanks I understand this but how do I do this without saying I did not say this - this is what I said?
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    She has said I go food shopping making it sound like I do this weekly when what I actually said was I shop online mostly or my husband goes and IF I have to go I would only be going for bread or something light and would use my walker as I can sit on it to rest or will get a scooter if available
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    You put in a submission which says there are multiple problems with the HCP report and then give 3 particularly bad examples which would clearly impact on the points scored and leave it at that. Then concentrate on your evidence.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    In my appeal submission I pointed where the assessor had made inaccurate statements in her report, and why those were inaccurate.  I did not make personal comments about the assessor.  I won my appeal.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    Thank you this is all so helpful, its so stressful
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Posts: 1,368Member Chatterbox
    Hi @Horrified65, I am glad you have found the community advice helpful! Please do let us know if there is anything else we can help you with :)
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    I will and if anyone has anything
    further to add/assist it will be appreciated.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    @annegardner - this is exactly what happened to me - I was not able to answer questions fully and she was going onto the next question. She hardly looked at me once, looking at her keyboard most of the time. My report is only a tiny part of what I said and was not able to say anymore than she wanted me to! She has deduced just by looking at me and seeing me come into the assessment centre that I have normal power and movement to both legs, which I have not had for years.
    It is terrible that these people are getting away with treating people like this. The whole system is wrong and I have been in contact with my MP. The Government need to change this and soon!
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    I have had many assessments over the years - this one was like nothing I have ever exeperienced before!
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    This is the reason why it's important when filling out the forms that you put down as much information about how your conditions affect you as possible. This way during the assessment it's less information you have to give them. There's not always enough of time to tell them everything you need to and it can often be very rushed.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    I did put down everything that I needed to on the form - she wasnt interested
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    This is the reason why it's important when filling out the forms that you put down as much information about how your conditions affect you as possible. This way during the assessment it's less information you have to give them. There's not always enough of time to tell them everything you need to and it can often be very rushed.
    You think so?
    If that is the case why ask questions when the answers are already described on the PIP2 and evidence is enclosed supporting those answers?
    Some assessments are carried out where either the PIP2 has been lost or not even received at all.
    Are you suggesting that those claimants that are treated as vulnerable by the DWP who do not need to return the PIP2 get a longer and more detailed assessment?
    We hear of cases where the computer system has gone down and the assessor cannot access the PIP2 and has to write the answers on a piece of paper hoping to fill out the computer driven assessment either later in the day or maybe the following day.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    Wholly agree with @poppy123456. Get the form right and it doesn’t really matter what happens at the HCP assessment. Lots of people claim to have got the form right. They rarely have.
  • Tara2015Tara2015 Posts: 23Member Whisperer
    Hi iv just joined Aswell and I got my decision today I got standard daily living that was it no mobility I have rheumatoid arthritis and like you I can't get in and out of the bath and I live alone so on the occasions my boyfriend is there he use to try and lift me out but it was to painful like you I can't bend my knees and my right hip is gubbed plus both feet and ankles I got 2 points for bathing and it's stated I can bath with an aid even tho I told her I can't bath at all I just use a cloth as I don't have a shower and dressing I got 2 points even tho I stated I can't dress my top half and have to sleep with my upper clothes on,I knew the horror stories so in one way I'm glad iv been awarded something thaught I would have to fight on the other I'm one point short for the enchanced rate and I feel I should have got more points for these two, anyway I'm not much help but try not to stress untill you get your decision as you might get fingers crossed for you x
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    @Tara2015

    Are you going to appeal?
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    Really sorry you're going through this, I had my reassessment form in May and my face to face in June, I have just received a letter saying my Pip was stopped last month. I do not even recognise the person that the report was written about. It certainly was not me! They seem to have written the exact opposite of what I told them and demonstrated with their stupid tests, it contradicts itself and is full of absolute lies. I really sympathise with your situation sorry. X
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    @Tara2015
    i really think you should do the Mandatory Reconsideration
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    Wholly agree with @poppy123456. Get the form right and it doesn’t really matter what happens at the HCP assessment. Lots of people claim to have got the form right. They rarely have.
    Right, so the PIP2 is the key? That I can understand fully as that was the reason for my issues with the PIP problems. I will admit that they were complete but will have to admit that they were not complete in the correct way - too much emphasis on the issues and not the impact. In my mind I was completing the form to match the evidence and not the other way round.
    As with most things, it is only when you have lost what you could have had that you realise where you went wrong along the way and then can't do anything about it.

    But once again issue arises of getting help and advice when completing the form. Something that does not exist for me and I would imagine quite a lot of others as well..It would be interesting to see the comparisons across the country - region by region where the PIP claim was  substandard and where it was not, who received the correct award first time round and whether professional help was given.  

    What I would have given for an offer of help 5 years ago or even 5 months ago to let someone else fight the fight for me.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    Yup. Get the PIP 2 right and, even if not immediately, all eventually falls into place. I’ve tended to find that once I’ve explained what’s required most people can do the form competently themselves. The only critical bits which need advice subsequently are the face to face and an appeal.
  • Tara2015Tara2015 Posts: 23Member Whisperer
    Matilda and horrified yes I think so going to go to my cab as I posted on here and a few had said to not as I could loose the award I got so basically count my blessings but I'm not lying I know the pain I'm in and can except the rest I only got two points on but bathing and dressing is my worst problem so to be told to use an aid after writing it in my form my rhumatoid nurse stating it in my medical I supplied its like she just skipped over that bit and it's not fair I only got 4 points for mobility and she stated I walked fine at the f2f even tho I wear a big boot use a stick and have a permanent limp but at the same time I still can walk all be it in pain so cam let that go but not those two it's definitely what I should have scored more on 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    @Tara2015

    It's worth appealing if you think your present award is safe from reduction.  I got standard both elements after an inaccurate report increased ay tribunal to enhanced both elements.

    Many assessors are incompetent and/or dishonest which is why 71% of appeals succeed.

    My assessor said that because I walked 16m in assessment centre then I must be able to walk 20-50m outdoors which is a ridiculous inference.  Tribunal evidently agreed it was a ridiculous claim to make.  

    0-20m aided = 12 points
    20-50m aided = 10 points
    20-50m unaided = 8 points

    before you have to stop to rest.

    This is outdoors using pavements and kerbs.

    To get points for daily living activities usually you have to use aids.  But if you have difficulty completing the activities even using aids then usually you should get even more points.  If you can't complete the activities reliably - that is safely, repeatedly and in a reasonable time - then that counts as not being able to complete the activities at all.  Or it should do - most assessors ignore the reliability criteria.

    To get points for how your disabilities affect you 50% of the time, i.e. at least 4 days out of 7.

    Disability Rights site has a good guide to PIP appeals.  Take a look at the list of descriptors. Your disabilities have to fit relevant descriptors.





  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    @Matilda - good info thanks, I find it bizarre that they can do this and say someone has normal movement and power without any examination, its all ludicrous. So much that I said has been missed off. When I said I need my husband to help me in and out of the shower as I cannot lift my left leg or put weight on my right and habe had falls. she says can use grab rails to get in and out and no falls reported. No falls reported as my husband gets me in and out to stop the falls.

    Its all very stressful
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    @Tara2015 exact thing happened to me with my bathing etc.... I also have nurse coming in for self catheterisation but she has not given me the points on this saying only that I need aids! She questioned why the catheters are not on my prescription! I do not know why as they get delivered direct every month.
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    My report says that they have changed some of the descriptors used to make the assesment, did they do this at the form stage, the assessment stage or the decision stage? Is this moving the goalposts halfway through. Also if so many people are getting the forms wrong is that the fault of the claiment or the form?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    I'm not sure what you mean by "they've changed some of the descriptors used" the only descriptor that has changed is the following and planning a journey part, where they removed for reasons other than psychological distress. Otherwise the descriptors are the same.

    It's not the form itself that's at fault, it's the claimants that don't fill out the forms correctly. Lots of people fail to put enough of information about how their conditions affect them. Using examples of situations that have happened to you often helps. For example, if you can't go out alone, what will happen to you if you were to go out alone. Are you able to cross a road safely, what would happen if you were alone and there was a busy road. If you got lost would you be able to use the phone to ring someone for help.  I used 2 examples for my daughters claim for the descriptor following and planning a journey because they were real life examples of what actually did happen to her.
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    My denial letter says "I looked at the HCP report and changed some of the descriptors previously chosen based on medical evidence received"
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Do you mean the decision letter and not denial letter? Have you got a copy of the assessment report? If you don't then ring PIP on Monday morning and ask them to send you a copy out. They mostly go with the report and it's rare to go against it but it can and does happen. Without that assessment report it's impossible to know.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    Usually not the fault of the claimant or the form - the fault of the assessor in choosing the wrong descriptors.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    sarah50 said:
    My denial letter says "I looked at the HCP report and changed some of the descriptors previously chosen based on medical evidence received"
    The assessor may well have been a little over generous in advising the DWP of the descriptors (points) you would qualify under.
    The DWP may well have reduced them based on the other evidence submitted.
    Also it may well be the other way round and the DWP awarded more points but still not enough to get the expected award.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    Matilda said:
    Usually not the fault of the claimant or the form - the fault of the assessor in choosing the wrong descriptors.
    At the end of the day that is entirely down to the lack of supporting evidence and possibly the poor standard of completing the PIP2 form.

    If you don't make the case for points then the assessor can only suggest that you are not entitled to them The assessor is not there to 'help' the claimant make the case.
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    What supporting evidence do I need, I no longer take prescription drugs there is no treatment therefore I don't have any contact with anyone professionally, my husband is my carer and we manage my condition as best we can.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    sarah50 said:
    What supporting evidence do I need, I no longer take prescription drugs there is no treatment therefore I don't have any contact with anyone professionally, my husband is my carer and we manage my condition as best we can.
    A diary written by yourself, a letter from your husband. Have the descriptors there when writing the letter so he can point out which ones apply and the reasons why.

    Have you been refused? Are you requesting the MR or Tribunal? Sorry but it's not clear as you've been posting on other peoples threads and it becomes very confusing.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    sarah50 said:
    What supporting evidence do I need, I no longer take prescription drugs there is no treatment therefore I don't have any contact with anyone professionally, my husband is my carer and we manage my condition as best we can.
    A diary written by yourself, a letter from your husband. Have the descriptors there when writing the letter so he can point out which ones apply and the reasons why.

    Have you been refused? Are you requesting the MR or Tribunal? Sorry but it's not clear as you've been posting on other peoples threads and it becomes very confusing.
    I'll write a letter in support along with a diary of the last 7 days for the OP - £100??
    Only joking, but it must go through the mind of the DWP as well as the Tribunal that such evidence could well be suspect.
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    Apologies if I've been hijacking other peoples threads I simply meant to demonstrate that these people were not alone in their confusion frustration and struggle. I have started another discussion more specific to my circumstances. In short. I have been getting pip I have been reassessed and refused. I have just sent a letter requesting a MR. I am confused by many of the comments on here some say I need medical evidence some people say I need anecdotal evidence others that anecdotal evidence is not worth anything some say the hcp report is important and some say it isn't some say the pip2 form is more important.
  • chrisvanfchrisvanf Posts: 59Member Whisperer
    In March this year I received 4 points after an assessment, I applied for MR and about 2 weeks later got a phone call from DM asking me about my condition, I told him some more info and he simply said, "Can I telephone PIP applications up and ask for another form, when you fill it in please put as much info as possible without going into fine detail, I will put on the system that I have asked you to start process again".

    I filled in another form, filled it in correctly (it took 8/9 days) then sent it off with more medical evidence,  but this time my assessment was recorded with permission by myself.

    I answered the questions with short but precise answers, when the assessment was over I asked her if she had ever heard of my illness, she said "No, but I have now, and I will look on the internet for more info.

    I received enhanced daily living, but only 4 points for mobility.

    I have since looked at the report and while it was reasonably accurate there were a few omissions and a few inaccuracies.

    I have asked for a MR and was very diplomatic, I did not in any way say the assessor lied or I thought it unfair, I merely stated that,while the report showed how my disability affected my daily life, it did not correctly identify my mobility issues, and I believed I should have been awarded points in the following descriptors, and why I should have been awarded the points, added a little extra GP evidence letter.

    I am still awaiting this decision,(only been 3 weeks).

    The last assessment correction was not due to my recording of the event, although it made it probable for a more accurate report, there were still errors and inaccuracies in the report, but a correctly filled out PIP form, concise medical evidence about the condition and good, but not elaborate answers to the assessors questions at assessment, made it very difficult  for the assessor to write a vastly different report than what the evidence shows as a whole.

    The internet is showered with a very small percentage of bad experiences, but very few success story's, I wonder why?  :/ :/    
    Edited, re-edited, bits added, bits taken out spellchecked then edited again, 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    sarah50 said:
    Apologies if I've been hijacking other peoples threads I simply meant to demonstrate that these people were not alone in their confusion frustration and struggle. I have started another discussion more specific to my circumstances. In short. I have been getting pip I have been reassessed and refused. I have just sent a letter requesting a MR. I am confused by many of the comments on here some say I need medical evidence some people say I need anecdotal evidence others that anecdotal evidence is not worth anything some say the hcp report is important and some say it isn't some say the pip2 form is more important.
    Evidence that proves those descriptors apply to you, is good evidence. For example, a letter from your GP that doesn't state how your conditions affect you isn't going to help your claim. You should avoid mentioning any lies that may have been told in the assessment report and concentrate on what descriptors apply to you when writing the MR request letter.

    It's extremely difficult to advise anyone when no one knows exactly how your conditions affect you, which is why getting some further advice and help with the MR and Tribunal if needed is always better.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    chrisvanf said:
    In March this year I received 4 points after an assessment, I applied for MR and about 2 weeks later got a phone call from DM asking me about my condition, I told him some more info and he simply said, "Can I telephone PIP applications up and ask for another form, when you fill it in please put as much info as possible without going into fine detail, I will put on the system that I have asked you to start process again".

    The internet is showered with a very small percentage of bad experiences, but very few success story's, I wonder why?  :/ :/    
    First of all I am extremely surprised of the actions of the DWP. I have never heard of them trying to help a claimant out in this way - you either get an award or don't is all that they are interested in.

    According to current statistics and excluding claimants who have a terminal illness, more claimants do not get an award than those that do. Not quite 50/50 more like about 47% get an award V 53% who fail.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    @sarah50

    It really depends on your case what evidence you need.  Try to get some f2f advice from CAB or similar, or welfare rights.

    I am very cynical about the assessment process with so much evidence of any kind being ignored.  Same for MR.

    At tribunal the most important evidence was my own testimony plus medical evidence in support.  The only medical reports I had were from when I first claimed DLA 19 years before.  But I have a degenerative condition so no way would this have got any better, only worse.  I only have physical disabilities, no mental ones.
  • chrisvanfchrisvanf Posts: 59Member Whisperer
    @Yadnad

    The entire conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes,and at the end I was told to re-apply, what can I say, he had the report I didn't.
     I have like many other people no experience in "claiming" any form of benefits or Gov't payments, except family allowance and I think that's given, not applied for, so I can only say what happened in my case. 

    And while you are "extremely surprised" that the DWP have helped a claimant in any way, it's difficult to say it hasn't happened before, unless you spoke to every PIP claimant.   .

    Adjusting figures or editing statements is easily done, it all depends on what you want the percentages or statement to show. 




    Edited, re-edited, bits added, bits taken out spellchecked then edited again, 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    chrisvanf said:
    @Yadnad

    The entire conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes,and at the end I was told to re-apply, what can I say, he had the report I didn't.
     I have like many other people no experience in "claiming" any form of benefits or Gov't payments, except family allowance and I think that's given, not applied for, so I can only say what happened in my case. 

    And while you are "extremely surprised" that the DWP have helped a claimant in any way, it's difficult to say it hasn't happened before, unless you spoke to every PIP claimant.   .

    Adjusting figures or editing statements is easily done, it all depends on what you want the percentages or statement to show. 




    I was surprised simply because of 23 years of claiming various sickness and disability based benefits I have never known the DWP to telephone me and go through a report that I had not seen and then suggest that I should do a better job by filling out a new form. In fact they have never telephoned for any reason.

    Normally and no doubt this rings true with most benefit claimants, the DWP not only fail to contact anybody including medical professionals for a PIP claim but are only interested in getting a decision out to the claimant generally based on the PIP2 form that they have in front of them whether it be good bad or otherwise and what the assessor has written. To actually suggest that the current PIP2 may not be making out the best case for you, they are letting you do it again so that you get that award they believe you are entitled to.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    edited September 2018
    Matilda said:
    @Tara2015

    It's worth appealing if you think your present award is safe from reduction.  I got standard both elements after an inaccurate report increased ay tribunal to enhanced both elements.

    Many assessors are incompetent and/or dishonest which is why 71% of appeals succeed.

    My assessor said that because I walked 16m in assessment centre then I must be able to walk 20-50m outdoors which is a ridiculous inference.  Tribunal evidently agreed it was a ridiculous claim to make.  

    0-20m aided = 12 points
    20-50m aided = 10 points
    20-50m unaided = 8 points

    before you have to stop to rest.

    This is outdoors using pavements and kerbs.

    To get points for daily living activities usually you have to use aids.  But if you have difficulty completing the activities even using aids then usually you should get even more points.  If you can't complete the activities reliably - that is safely, repeatedly and in a reasonable time - then that counts as not being able to complete the activities at all.  Or it should do - most assessors ignore the reliability criteria.

    To get points for how your disabilities affect you 50% of the time, i.e. at least 4 days out of 7.

    Disability Rights site has a good guide to PIP appeals.  Take a look at the list of descriptors. Your disabilities have to fit relevant descriptors.





    I have said this before and it appears to need repeating. 4 days out of 7 was for DLA and has literally nothing to do with the 50% rule for PIP. The above is a complete misstatement of the 50% rule for PIP.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed

    I have said this before and it appears to need repeating. 4 days out of 7 was for DLA and has literally nothing to do with the 50% rule for PIP. The above is a complete misstatement of the 50% rule for PIP.
    Is it not simply the case that the 50% rule applies to any length of time? - day, week, month and even a year?
    If I have it wrong could you briefly explain it again for us?

  • Nikki76Nikki76 Posts: 8Member Listener
    My assessment report ,when l read mine,it was like they were writing  about  another person!.....
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    Hi Nikki, I know exactly what you mean. I had to check the NI number on the letter to make sure I hadn't been sent the wrong letter
  • Nikki76Nikki76 Posts: 8Member Listener
    Hi Sarah,yeah it's like like,the assessor wrote the opposite of you said!....my friend the same,pip stopped her money ,cos all she did was stroke her cat!
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    Wow! Your comment almost echoes mine. I had pip2 form in May face to face in June have just had decision telling me money stopped as of two weeks ago.i have been racking my brains as to where I went wrong but am at a loss. I have sent my mandatory reconsideration letter and on Monday I am going to phone and ask them to send me the HCP report from the face to face. I am exhausted and in pain and my partner isn't much help when it comes to paperwork, I am now frightened that I can't pay my bills, afford to eat. My heating is coal fired and so I will have no heating and winter is coming. Sorry I'm off the point waffling again it just feels as though my whole world has crashed in.
  • Nikki76Nikki76 Posts: 8Member Listener
    Hi Sarah,don't be sorry for ranting,lol,l done plenty of that  myself ...xxx 
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    Most appeals win and of course arrears are paid.

    @sarah50 - can your partner and your family help with money until you get the result of MR or appeal?

    Probably, you did not go wrong - it's just that there are so many incompetent and lying assessors.

    Try to get some f2f help from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.

  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    Thankyou Matilda, we will still get our esa but his carers will stop and with pip stopped that is 50% of our income just gone no warning so not able to plan for it my original award was until Feb but as I said had assesment in June and they have stopped it from the 19th. With rent top up for bedroom tax to pay and council tax top up esa doesn't cover it. Everything crossed if I could 😂 do you know if pip is paid in arrears like other benefits?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    PIP is paid 4 weeks in arrears.
  • chrisvanfchrisvanf Posts: 59Member Whisperer
    edited September 2018
    @Yadnad

    So what you are saying is, because DWP didn't phone you, then DWP don't phone anybody.
    Have you spoken with every claimant that DWP have on record?
    Or, have you official documentation from DWP stating no claimant has/was ever contacted by phone. 

    The only thing I can surmise from my conversation with the DWP is that the assessors report was vastly different from the the PIP form and medical evidence that I sent in with the pip form. 


    Edited, re-edited, bits added, bits taken out spellchecked then edited again, 
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    Thankyou poppy that's a relief at least I will get a payment tomorrow. My direct debits with not make me overdrawn so no bank charges I can ill afford.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    It's rare for DWP or the health assessment providers to contact anyone regarding any medical evidence but it can and does happen. 2 people from my daughters list of contacts were contacted. Her college and a Psychologist from the CLDT were both contacted before a decision was made and they were both asked exactly the same question.
  • chrisvanfchrisvanf Posts: 59Member Whisperer
    Hi @poppy123456
      
    I suppose if the Decision Maker needs info or clarification of something then the easiest and perhaps fastest way to find this out would be to contact the claimant or the claimant's medical professionals.

    What does CLDT stand for?


    Edited, re-edited, bits added, bits taken out spellchecked then edited again, 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    chrisvanf said:

    What does CLDT stand for?

    Community Learning Disabilities Team
  • chrisvanfchrisvanf Posts: 59Member Whisperer
    Ah thanks for that @poppy123456

    Sorry, I'm old-school
    Too many acronym;s , can't keep up.. lol
    Edited, re-edited, bits added, bits taken out spellchecked then edited again, 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    chrisvanf said:
    Ah thanks for that @poppy123456

    Sorry, I'm old-school
    Too many acronym;s , can't keep up.. lol
    Haha, we're only as old as we feel.. :# B)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    chrisvanf said:
    Hi @poppy123456
      
    I suppose if the Decision Maker needs info or clarification of something then the easiest and perhaps fastest way to find this out would be to contact the claimant or the claimant's medical professionals.

    What does CLDT stand for?


    The circumstances in which they seek additional evidence are limited but well defined. In practice they ignore about 80% of their own guidance and only ask in those cases where people lack insight (LD and MH) or when their backlog is so great they need a reason to do a paper assessment.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    Type your comment

    1.4 Further evidence needed

    1.4.1 Additional evidence from professionals supporting the claimant should be sought where the HP feels it would help to inform their advice to DWP. The circumstances where obtaining further evidence may be appropriate include (but are not limited to):

    • where HPs feel that further evidence will allow them to offer robust advice without the need for a face-to-face consultation – for example, because the addition of key evidence will negate the need for a consultation

    • where they feel that a consultation may be unhelpful because the claimant lacks insight into their condition

    • where claimants have progressive or fluctuating conditions

    • where they consider that a consultation is likely to still be needed but further evidence will improve the quality of the advice provided to DWP – for example, because the existing evidence lacks detail or is contradictory or to corroborate other evidence

    • where, in reassessment cases, further evidence may confirm whether or not there has been a change in the claimant’s health condition or disability.

    1.4.2 If a face to face consultation has already been arranged and, following receipt of further evidence, the HP concludes that they can now advise DWP on the basis of paper evidence, the face to face consultation should be cancelled.

    1.4.3 If a claimant brings further relevant evidence to a face to face consultation which is not already on PIPCS, the HP should always take a copy of it and consider its relevance when completing their assessment report. The copy of the evidence should be sent to the CM with the completed report.

    Sources of further evidence

    1.4.4 In the claimant questionnaire, claimants are encouraged to list the professionals who support them and are best placed to provide advice on their circumstances. HPsshould give consideration to the fact that in cases of complex conditions, knowledge and involvement of the GP may be limited, with specialist practitioners potentially better placed in some cases to provide useful evidence. HPs should consider which professionals identified can provide useful evidence. They should not simply request evidence from all professionals identified as standard.

    1.4.5 The HP should consider the most appropriate evidence for the case under consideration. There are various sources of further evidence, including, but not limited to:

    • a report from other health professionals involved in the claimant’s care such as a community psychiatric nurse (CPN)

    • a report from an NHS hospital

    • a factual report from a GP

    • a report from a local authority-funded clinic

    • current repeat prescription lists

    • care or treatment plans

    • evidence from any other professional involved in supporting the claimant, such as social workers, key workers or care co-ordinators

    • telephone conversations with any such professionals

    • information from a disabled young person’s school or special educational needs co-ordinator (SENCO)

    • an occupational therapist’s report

    • a report from an ophthalmologist

    • contacting the claimant by telephone for further information.

    Seeking further evidence from professionals

    1.4.6 DWP has 3 standard pro forma for use in seeking evidence in writing from (a) GPs, (b) hospitals and (c) other professionals. These pro forma are provided separately.

    1.4.7 Where necessary, HPs may also seek evidence from professionals by telephone. Such telephone calls should be made by approved HPs, not by clerical staff.

    1.4.8 A written record should be taken of any telephone discussions seeking further information and the content included in the assessment report provided to DWP or via the PIPAT. The HP should inform the professional being contacted that this record is being produced and that this may be made available to the claimant and/or their representative.

    1.4.9 The HP should also clarify whether any information provided by the professional is harmful or confidential.

  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    chrisvanf said:
    @Yadnad

    So what you are saying is, because DWP didn't phone you, then DWP don't phone anybody.
    Have you spoken with every claimant that DWP have on record?
    Or, have you official documentation from DWP stating no claimant has/was ever contacted by phone. 

    The only thing I can surmise from my conversation with the DWP is that the assessors report was vastly different from the the PIP form and medical evidence that I sent in with the pip form. 


    You seem to read what you want to read.
    I said I have never heard of it before. It has never featured on this before this last week as ever happened either.
    No doubt it has happened to others but given how the DWP work (with 23 years of experience under my belt) it does not appear to follow the trends that they have set previously
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    edited September 2018
    chrisvanf said:
    Hi @poppy123456
      
    I suppose if the Decision Maker needs info or clarification of something then the easiest and perhaps fastest way to find this out would be to contact the claimant or the claimant's medical professionals.

    What does CLDT stand for?


    The point is that the DWP have normally not bothered they just seem to rubber stamp what the assessor reports.

    If this is to become the norm in contacting the claimant how on earth would you square that if the claimant has never disclosed a telephone number to the DWP like I have done? Maybe they would write a letter and ask nicely to contact the writer as they have some questions to ask. Given the postal system that the DWP use it could well be 4 weeks at least before the DWP get a written reply back asking what it is that you want to discuss?.
     
  • WaylayWaylay Posts: 685Member Chatterbox
    @mikehughescq I sent in a very well done form (according to the Tribunal judge), with a lot of useful evidence. I had little stories of things that have happened in various situations. As far as I can tell, the assessor and both DMs didn't even look at it. So many serious factual errors, really basic ones, that they can't have read anything I sent. *shrug*
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    The issue isn’t really whether they’ve read them or not. There is a cultural issue within DWP about weighing evidence badly.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    The issue isn’t really whether they’ve read them or not. There is a cultural issue within DWP about weighing evidence badly.
    If that is the case, thank God the DWP Decision Makers aren't employed by the MOJ. to sit on Tribunals advising the panel as an expert on Welfare Law.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    Their only role there is to present the DWP case, Generally the new generation of POs do it hilariously badly. Sadly the social entitlement chamber has been busy recruiting barristers as judges with predictably bad results. 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    edited October 2018
    . Sadly the social entitlement chamber has been busy recruiting barristers as judges with predictably bad results. 
    Are you suggesting that these 'new' judges are not up to speed with legislation and case law? Or that they can't find enough to want the job?

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Posts: 3,160Member Brian Blessed
    Decision of the president allegedly. May well know the law and caselaw but the end result is a disaster in the making. I wouldn’t wish to stereotype too much here but there are parts of the process which just require yes or no. Barristers can’t cope with that and no suddenly becomes no with a 2 page explanation that is largely nonsense. Ego driven stuff. So you might get leave to appeal to UT but by george yes isn’t enough. It has to be yes with 2 pages. Better still it’s never yes for any of the errors you identified. It always has to be a new error they identified. No, is even worse. UT judges, coping with their own backlog, are having a fine time ripping the new generation apart. Have never seen UT decisions saying that a FTT got everything wrong that was conceivably available to them to get wrong but am aware of at least 3 in the last year up on Rightsnet. 
  • fluffy84fluffy84 Posts: 18Member Whisperer
    Although it can be a long and draw out and stressful process I would strongly advise anyone who feels that their PIP assessment is flawed or their award wrong to take their case to tribunal. 

    We had a similar experience and after 10 months went to tribunal and won. Send the courts as much evidence as possible - medical and personal statements. Go through the assessment report line by line and try and find evidence to dispute their findings. 

    Dont give up - no matter how hard they make it for you. Please ask for help and support here - or with your friends and family. 

    These assessors have targets to meet and will actively find ways to refuse PIP. The DWP seem to disregard all medical evidence and almost always side with the assessors report. Once you get to tribunal the panel and the judge are totally independent and actual experts in their field. For the first time we were treated fairly and with compassion once we reached our tribunal. 

    The system is a disgrace. I'm hoping to do what I can to stand against it. 

    Wishing everyone the very best of luck with their PIP claim and please feel free to message if you need support. 
    xx
  • LindaannLindaann Posts: 41Member Whisperer
    Has anyone been awarded pip for fibromyalgia ?
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    Lindaann said:
    Has anyone been awarded pip for fibromyalgia ?
    Overall? many 10's of 1,000's
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    Lindaann said:
    Has anyone been awarded pip for fibromyalgia ?
    PIP isn't awarded based on a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect you..
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    So as I expected I am now losing my Mobility Vehicle after about 12 years due to the assessors blatant lies.  I have got some further letters from
    my GP and also from
    my Consultants.
    Can anyone tell me the best way to do a Mandatory Reconsideration?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    So as I expected I am now losing my Mobility Vehicle after about 12 years due to the assessors blatant lies.  I have got some further letters from
    my GP and also from
    my Consultants.
    Can anyone tell me the best way to do a Mandatory Reconsideration?
    I'm sorry to hear that. MR request in writing stating what you disagree with, state where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Giving at least 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you did that activity. You have 28 days from the date of decision to request the MR. Only 17% of decision change at this stage, most people have to take it to Tribunal.

    Also bare in mind that they will look at the whole decision again and not just part of it. Contact your local welfare rights or law centre for face to face advice and help is the best thing you can do.
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    advicenow.org.uk/pip-tool

    will generate an MR submission letter.
  • PIPnewbiePIPnewbie Posts: 153Member Talkative
    I don’t agree that getting the PIP 2 form is key.

    I laboured over my girlfriend’s application between and at work for weeks, explaining why she meets such and such descriptors, what has happened in the past when attempting these descriptors, and photocopying many hospital reports from over the years to recent ones, all that show her condition is lifelong and unchanging.

    She was still told to make it to assessment, was still asked everything already answered in the PIP 2 form, like it was utterly pointless filling it out, and was give mere standard rate daily living just barely with 8 points and an 9 month away date for review.

    A girl born with Crohn’s, who had four bowel resections at age 9, had diagnosed arthritis at the same time, and diagnosed endometriosis and fibromyalgia... standard daily living because she held a 250 gram bottle of liquid to drink.

    Some people here seem to think the system, the process, and DWP are perfect because they got theirs and are fine and dandy, and everything will work out fine if you follow the procedure to the letter.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    I am concerned as to how I write the MR without calling out the blatant lies and things that I did not say to the assessor. How she can decide by looking at me that I have full power in my legs. How I have no issues with my arms and dont have issues lifting etc. I have no feeling in my thumb and have numbess both in my arm, leg and foot. The numbess in my thumb will never come back so I have to be careful lifting anything hot etc but can still put my thumb and forefinger together in a pinch (that does not mean I can easily lift something)! Its so stressful and there is NO mention at all about my shortness of breath etc!

    I want to just say this is all lies but know that is not going to get me anywhere.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    PIPnewbie said:
    I don’t agree that getting the PIP 2 form is key.

    I laboured over my girlfriend’s application between and at work for weeks, explaining why she meets such and such descriptors, what has happened in the past when attempting these descriptors, and photocopying many hospital reports from over the years to recent ones, all that show her condition is lifelong and unchanging.

    She was still told to make it to assessment, was still asked everything already answered in the PIP 2 form, like it was utterly pointless filling it out, and was give mere standard rate daily living just barely with 8 points and an 9 month away date for review.

    A girl born with Crohn’s, who had four bowel resections at age 9, had diagnosed arthritis at the same time, and diagnosed endometriosis and fibromyalgia... standard daily living because she held a 250 gram bottle of liquid to drink.

    Some people here seem to think the system, the process, and DWP are perfect because they got theirs and are fine and dandy, and everything will work out fine if you follow the procedure to the letter.
    Most people have face to face assessments, it's very rare to have a paper based one. PIP isn't award based on a diagnosis, it doesn't matter how many conditions you have and how long you've had them. It's how they affect your ability to do daily activities based on the descriptors.

    Points will not be given for needing assistance if aids can reasonably be used. It's extremely difficult to complete a form as complex as PIP if you don't fully understand what each descriptor means. This is the reasons why it's helpful to get some help filling in those forms, from someone that understands what they're doing.

    No one that's helped you has said the system is perfect, far from it. People have gone out of their way to help and advise you and there has been times where i've felt you haven't fully listened to the advise that's been given to you.

    Sometimes evidence can contradict each other, which is why less is always more.
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    Thanks @poppy123456, how do I say I disagree with something without actually saying the assessor has lied. For instance she has said I can walk around the supermarket for 10 minutes. What I actually said was that I dont usually go as I shop online but that if I did I would get a scooter or use my walker as I can sit on this and rest and wouldnt be there long as I cannot carry bags I would only be getting one or two
    things.
  • sarah50sarah50 Posts: 119Member Chatterbox
    @Horrified65 So sorry, this whole process is obviously stressing you out. I feel your frustration. My report too is a complete load of lies it says I said things that my husband who was with me absolutely says I didn't say it is to be frank a pile of rubbish to add to that the decision maker has cherry picked from it to make out that I'm absolutely fine. I sent in my MR and that decision maker has looked at even less of the evidence and just cut and pasted the original decision makers remarks. Honestly my advice to you is not to stress yourself out too much over the MR, chances are it won't make the blindest bit of difference. It's just a stage you have to go through in the appeal. Prepare for a tribunal. Write yourself some notes, keep a diary write down specifically why the tasks in the descriptors are a problem. It might be an idea to look at the guidance notes written by DWP for assessors. It is a long document but it might help guide you to know how to frame your answers specifically against the descriptors. They do not consider any difficulties that a person may have with daily living or mobility that are not included in the descriptors. I really hope this helps you. X
  • MatildaMatilda Posts: 2,535Member Brian Blessed
    Say where the report is inaccurate.  You don't have to use the terms 'liar' or 'lies'. Say what the truth is and what descriptors should apply and why.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,862Member - under moderation Brian Blessed
    So as I expected I am now losing my Mobility Vehicle after about 12 years due to the assessors blatant lies.  I have got some further letters from
    my GP and also from
    my Consultants.
    Can anyone tell me the best way to do a Mandatory Reconsideration?
    Hi I know where you are coming from. My PIP experience was a biannual review which for the three that I have had resulted in 3 Motability cars being taken back in the past 5 years.

    There is no longer any certainty with having a Motability vehicle - it is at risk every time you have a re-assessment. Best advice - buy your own or use the bus/taxi/train instead.
  • fluffy84fluffy84 Posts: 18Member Whisperer
    So sorry to hear about your experience. 

    Please don't worry too much about saying that your assessment was falsified if it was. It is completely legitimate to use that sort of language. 
    We did and although did not achieve anything by doing the MR we did win at the tribunal. My sister-in-law was originally awarded nothing for living and lower award for mobility. After the tribunal she was awarded, quite rightly, higher for both. 
    We are currently pursuing a legal case against the DWP and ATOS for the process and the illegalities within it. 

    I would recommend appeal and asking for a MR - but don't hold out too much hope. It is common practice for the DWP to side with the original assessor and disregard your appeal. Continue with the process and prepare for a tribunal case. 

    My advice is to go through every single aspect of the PIP 'points' and provide evidence as to why the assessor is wrong. IF the assessor fabricated aspects of it then do use that language - just keep it formal and factual. Write to your GP and other members of the multi disciplinary team (OT's, Physio's etc) and ask them to provide reports backing up your claim. Use this as evidence. Ask people who help with your cares to write a personal statement on your day to day needs and use this as direct evidence. Go through all of you previous clinic letters etc and use any statements within them as evidence. 
    I found it really helpful to use the DWP website and go through all of the requirements for PIP and the 'points' so that I could show why my sister-in-law met their requirements. 

    I tried to use statements such as:
    At the assessment ...(name) ...... was awarded 2 points for preparing a meal. This is incorrect. She should have been awarded 4 points. The DWP website demands that 4 points be awarded if an individual requires supervision when preparing a meal. Evidence from ....(name) ....... GP states that..................... Evidence from ... (name) ..... Physiotherapist states that.......... 
    The assessors conclusions should be disregarded as they did not observe ...(name) doing ......... The assessor also reported that they assessed (name) ability to pick up a plate but this did not happen. 

    (The DWP include a list of words which directly explain what 'supervision' is - for example. Use this to explain why you fit within that criteria) 

    The above is juts a very quickly made up statement and not actually accurate! Just made it up to give you and idea of how I approached the MR and tribunal. 

    It is a long and drawn out process and it can  be very stressful but I would strongly advise that you peruse this to tribunal. If you are successful (many are) then you will receive a back payment dating back to your original application. 

    Feel free to ask any further questions.

    Wishing you much luck. x
  • LindaannLindaann Posts: 41Member Whisperer
    On my daughters assessment almost everything she had said/not said had been twisted ... i cannot believe that the young man assessing her had done this as he was very helpful and understanding of the pain she was in that same day .would you make notes of this to take to court or send in advance !
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
    @fluffy84 This is great information
    thanks so much.
    It seems reading most peoples comments that a MR is a waste of time and just a paper process to use as a stepping stone to tribunal, which I will be doing. Your information is very helpful as I am struggling with the words to use againt blatant lies and things I did not say!
  • fluffy84fluffy84 Posts: 18Member Whisperer
    Lindaann said:
    On my daughters assessment almost everything she had said/not said had been twisted ... i cannot believe that the young man assessing her had done this as he was very helpful and understanding of the pain she was in that same day .would you make notes of this to take to court or send in advance !
    Send everything in writing to the court. A lot of their decision making it based on the evidence which you send in. They clearly read it well before the case as during our tribunal they made reference to a huge amount of the evidence we sent in. 
    Be as detailed as you are able. You could even go through the assessment document line by line and depute the parts which were fabricated. Then provide evidence to show that you can prove that what the assessor has said is wrong - reports from GP etc. 
    xx
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Posts: 8,091Member, Community champion Brian Blessed
    There's only a 17% chance of the decision changing at MR stage so most have to take it to Tribunal.
  • fluffy84fluffy84 Posts: 18Member Whisperer
    @fluffy84 This is great information
    thanks so much.
    It seems reading most peoples comments that a MR is a waste of time and just a paper process to use as a stepping stone to tribunal, which I will be doing. Your information is very helpful as I am struggling with the words to use againt blatant lies and things I did not say!
    It's really hard to get into the 'mind set' of writing this sort of thing. It took me ages!!! But if you are able to get reports from medical professionals it really helps. 

    Anything which you sent to the DWP from this point will be used in court so try and keep your MR as factual as possible and obtain as much evidence as you possibly can. 

    If you proceed to a tribunal then any further evidence which you obtain must be sent to the court at least a week prior to the tribunal date. (Ie further reports from medical professionals). We had a long wait from application to tribunal - 10 months - so there was time to wait for reports from drs etc. The courts will send you details of where to send any evidence. As they are totally independent from the DWP they were extremely helpful to deal with and were considerate throughout the whole process. 

    Please do ask if you want any further advice. I can totally appreciate how difficult it is to negotiate this process - especially when in pain and struggling with mobility etc. 

    Massive well done to you for fighting this. Its an outright disgrace that its this difficult. xxx
  • Horrified65Horrified65 Posts: 31Member Talkative
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